Monday, June 13, 2011

உலக நாத்திகர் மாநாட்டில் முஸ்லிம்கள் விவாதம்...



நம் அனைவர் மீதும் எல்லாம் வல்ல இறைவனின் சாந்தியும் சமாதானமும் நிலவுவதாக...ஆமீன்.

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"Well I managed to watch the whole thing right up to the end, when RD himself is accosted outside the hall.

I have a different opinion from the commenters so far. I found the Islamic guys to be quite sophisticated in their argumentation techniques and VERY articulate. They were not idiots at all (delusional religious maniacs yes, stupid, no). To tackle them effectively you would have to be quite well educated in a range of areas and as articulate as they are (luckily PZ and the other participants in this farcical video were).

I was quite impressed with their efforts relatively speaking - I think they are in a different league from the Muslim people I know, even quite educated ones. - Comment No.10. 

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இந்த வீடியோவை கடைசிவரை பார்த்தேன், அதாவது அரங்கத்திற்கு வெளியே டாகின்ஸ் பேசியது வரை. 

இதுவரை இங்கு பின்னூட்டமிட்டவர்களின் கருத்துக்களில் இருந்து நான் வேறுபடுகின்றேன். தங்களுடைய வாத உத்திகளில் கைத்தேர்ந்தவர்களாகவும், சொல்ல வேண்டிய கருத்தை மிகத்தெளிவாக எடுத்துரைப்பவர்களாகவும் இருக்கின்றனர் இந்த முஸ்லிம்கள். நிச்சயமாக இவர்கள் மூடர்கள் இல்லை (மத மயக்கத்தில் இருப்பவர்களா..ஆம், ஆனால் மூடர்கள் கிடையாது). 

இவர்களை போன்றவர்களை வெற்றிகரமாக சமாளிக்க நீங்கள் பல துறைகளில் உங்களை பயிற்றுவித்து கொண்டும், அவர்களைப்போல தெளிவாக கருத்துக்களை வெளிப்படுத்தவும் தெரிந்திருக்க வேண்டும் (அதிர்ஷ்டவசமாக, இந்த பொருளற்ற வீடியோவில் வாதித்த மயர்ஸ் மற்றும் ஏனையோர் அப்படி இருந்தனர்). 

உண்மையை சொல்ல வேண்டுமென்றால், தங்களது முயற்சிகளால், என்னை வெகுவாக கவர்ந்து விட்டனர் இந்த முஸ்லிம்கள். நான் அறிந்த நன்கு படித்த முஸ்லிம்களை விடவும் இவர்கள் வேறுபட்டு நிற்கின்றனர் - (Extract from the original quote of) Comment No. 10"
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இப்படி சொன்னவர் ஒரு பல்கலைகழக விரிவுரையாளர். 

இன்றைய நாத்திகர்களின் தலைவர்களில் ஒருவராக கருதப்படும் ரிச்சர்ட் டாகின்ஸ் அவர்களது தளத்தில் இந்த விரிவுரையாளர் இட்ட பின்னூட்டத்தை தான் நீங்கள் மேலே பார்க்கின்றீர்கள். 

எதற்காக இப்படி சொன்னார்? அவர் குறிப்பிடும் வீடியோ எதைப்பற்றியது? அவர் குறிப்பிடும் அந்த முஸ்லிம்கள் யார்?

இந்த கேள்விகளுக்கு விடைக்காண கடந்த இரண்டாம் தேதிக்கு நாம் செல்ல வேண்டும். 

இந்த தேதியில், பிரிட்டனின் புகழ் பெற்ற இஸ்லாமிய அமைப்பான "IERA" (Islamic Education and Research Academy, இஸ்லாமிய கல்வி மற்றும் ஆராய்ச்சி கழகம்) ஒரு சுவாரசியமான பத்திரிக்கை அறிவிப்பை தன்னுடைய தளத்தில் வெளியிட்டிருந்தது. (IERA பற்றிய இத்தளத்தின் பதிவை காண <<இங்கே>> சுட்டவும்) 

அதாவது, ஜூன் 3 - 5  காலக்கட்டத்தில், அயர்லாந்தின் டப்ளின் (Dublin) நகரில் நடைபெறும் சர்வதேச நாத்திகர் மாநாட்டில் (International Atheist Conference) தாங்கள் கலந்து கொள்ள போவதாகவும், அந்த மாநாடு நடைபெறும் அரங்கத்திற்கு வெளியே ஸ்டால் அமைத்து, பிரபல நாத்திகர்களுடன் தாங்கள் நடத்திய விவாத வீடியோக்களை விநியோகம் செய்யப்போவதாகவும் அறிவித்திருந்தது இந்த அமைப்பு. 

அதுமட்டுமல்லாமல், தாங்கள் இறைநம்பிக்கை கொள்வதற்கு என்ன காரணங்கள் என்பதை விளக்கும்படியாக, இந்த மாநாட்டிற்கென பிரத்யோகமாக தயாரிக்கப்பட்ட சிறுநூல்களை (Booklets) விநியோகிக்க போவதாகவும், மேலும், கருத்தரங்கில் கலந்து கொள்ளவரும் டாகின்ஸ், மயர்ஸ் முதலானவர்களுடன் நாத்திகம் குறித்து கலந்துரையாட முயற்சி மேற்கொள்ள போவதாகவும் கூறியிருந்தது IERA. 

இந்த அறிக்கை, டாகின்ஸ்கின் தளம் தொடங்கி பல நாத்திகர்களது தளத்தில் சூடான விவாதத்தை ஏற்படுத்தியிருந்தது.

இந்த செய்தி உங்களில் சிலருக்கு ஆச்சர்யத்தை கொடுத்திருக்கலாம். ஆனால் IERAவை பொருத்தவரை, அவர்களது இம்மாத செயல்திட்டத்தில் இது ஒரு பகுதி, அவ்வளவே.

விவாதத்திற்கென தனி பிரிவையே கொண்டுள்ளது இந்த அமைப்பு. சமூகத்தில் நன்கு அடையாளம் காணப்பட்ட நாத்திகர்களுடன் இவர்கள் நடத்திய விவாதங்கள் பலரது கவனத்தை ஈர்த்துள்ளன.

குறிப்பாக, சென்ற ஆண்டு, இதே காலகட்டத்தில், அமெரிக்க நாத்திகர்கள் சங்கத்தின் தலைவரான எட் பக்னர் (Dr.Ed Buckner) அவர்களுடன் "இஸ்லாமா? நாத்திகமா?" என்ற தலைப்பில் நடத்திய விவாதம் கவனிக்கத்தக்கது (இந்த விவாதத்தின் சுட்டி கீழே கொடுக்கப்பட்டுள்ளது)

ஆக, நாத்திகர்களுடனான உரையாடல் என்பது இயல்பாகவே இவர்களுக்கு உற்சாகத்தை தரக்கூடிய ஒன்று. அந்த உற்சாகம் தான் இந்த மாநாடு குறித்த அறிவிப்பிலும் பிரதிபலித்தது.

மாநாட்டில் கலந்து கொள்வதற்காக தேர்ந்தெடுக்கப்பட்டவர்கள் ஹம்ஸா அண்ட்ரியஸ் ஜார்ஜிஸ் (இவரைப் பற்றிய இத்தளத்தின் கட்டுரையை காண <<இங்கே>> சுட்டவும்) மற்றும் அட்னன் ரஷித் ஆகியோர் ஆவர்.


தெளிவான செயல்திட்டங்களுடன் மாநாட்டிற்குள் நுழைந்தனர்.

தங்களுடைய எண்ணங்களை பிரதிபலிக்கும் சிறுநூல்களை, விவாத காணொளிகளை விநியோகித்தனர். மாநாட்டிற்கு வந்தவர்களுடன் நாத்திகம் மற்றும் இஸ்லாம் குறித்து உரையாடினர்.

அவர்கள் எதற்காக அங்கு சென்றார்களோ அந்த சந்தர்ப்பத்தை வெகு விரைவிலேயே இறைவன் ஏற்படுத்தி கொடுத்தான்.

ஆம், நாத்திகர்களால் பெரிதும் மதிக்கப்படும் பரிணாமவியலாளர்களான PZ மயர்ஸ் (PZ Myers) மற்றும் ரிச்சர்ட் டாகின்ஸ் ஆகியோருடன் பேசும் வாய்ப்பு ஏற்பட்டது. இதில் டாக்கின்ஸ்சுடன் சில நிமிடங்களே பேச நேரிட்டாலும், யர்ஸ்சுடன் சுமார் 25 நிமிடங்கள் கலந்துரையாடக்கூடிய வாய்ப்பை பெற்றனர்.

இந்த மினி விவாதத்தை கண்ட விரிவுரையாளரின் பின்னூட்டத்தை தான் நீங்கள் மேலே படித்தீர்கள்.

ஆம்...முஸ்லிம்களின் அணுகுமுறை பல நாத்திகர்களை வியப்பில் ஆழ்த்தியுள்ளது.

(இந்த வீடியோவின் முன்பகுதியை நாத்திகர்கள் தங்களது தளத்தில் முதலில் வெளியிடவில்லை. அதனை எடிட் செய்து பாரபட்சமாக நடந்து கொண்டனர் என்ற குற்றச்சாட்டை முஸ்லிம்கள் முன்வைத்திருந்தனர். ஆனால் இந்த குற்றச்சாட்டு அறியாமையால் ஏற்பட்ட ஒன்று. காரணம், முஸ்லிம்கள் தான் இந்த விவாதத்தை முதலில் படமெடுக்க தொடங்கினர். சிறிது நேரம் சென்ற பிறகுதான் நாத்திகர்கள் கலந்து கொள்ள ஆரம்பித்தனர். ஆகையால், முதல் சில நிமிடங்களை அவர்கள் தவறவிட்டு விட்டனர். அவர்கள் எவற்றை எடுத்தார்களோ அதனை தங்கள் தளங்களில் முதலில் வெளியிட்டு விட்டனர். இது தான் நடந்தது. ஆகையால், நாத்திகர்கள் எடிட் செய்து விட்டனர் என்ற குற்றச்சாட்டு நிராகரிக்கப்பட வேண்டியது.)

சரி, இப்போது அந்த விவாதத்திலிருந்து (மேலோட்டமாக) சில தகவல்கள்...

பொதுவான விசயங்களைப்பற்றி முதலில் கேள்விகளை கேட்டு, தன்னுடைய விளக்கத்தை கொடுத்து, பினனர் மயர்ஸ்சை குர்ஆனை நோக்கி மிக அழகாக கொண்டு வந்தார் ஹம்ஸா. குர்ஆன் கூறக்கூடிய விஷயங்கள் மனிதர்களின் எண்ணங்களுக்கு அப்பாற்பட்டவை என்பதை விளக்கினார்.

ஆனால், யர்ஸ் இதனை ஏற்றுக்கொள்ளவில்லை.

ஹம்ஸா தொடர்ந்தார். குர்ஆன், மலைகளை பற்றி கூறும் விஷயங்கள் இன்றைய அறிவியலோடு எப்படி ஒத்துப்போகின்றது என்பதை பிரபல விஞ்ஞானிகளின் கூற்றோடு நிரூபிக்க முயன்றார்.

மயர்ஸ் இது பற்றி பேசாமல் குர்ஆன் கூறும் சிசு வளரியல் (Embryology) பற்றி பேச தொடங்கினார் (இந்த துறையை சார்ந்தவர் மயர்ஸ்)

இந்த நேரத்தில் அட்னன் ரஷீதும் வாதத்தில் இணைந்து கொண்டார். உலக பிரசித்தி பெற்ற சிசு வளரியல் நிபுணரான டாக்டர் கீத்மூர் அவர்கள், குரானின் சிசு வளரியல் குறித்த கருத்துக்களை ஆமோதித்திருக்கின்றார் என்ற வாதத்தை முஸ்லிம்கள் முன்வைக்க, அதனை ஏற்றுக்கொள்ள மறுத்து விட்டார் யர்ஸ். மேலும் கீத்மூர் அவர்களின் கருத்தை ஏதோ ஒரு வார்த்தையில் யர்ஸ் விமர்சிக்க அந்த வார்த்தை எடிட் செய்யப்பட்டு பீப் ஒலி கொடுக்கப்பட்டது.

குர்ஆன் கூறும் சிசு வளரியல் குறித்த தகவல்கள் அன்றைய கால மனிதர்களால் யூகிக்கக்கூடிய ஒன்றுதான் என்றும், அரிஸ்டாட்டிலிடமிருந்து முஹம்மது (ஸல்) அவர்கள் இந்த தகவல்களை நகல் எடுத்து விட்டார் என்றும் குற்றம் சாட்டினார் யர்ஸ்.

அதற்கு ஹம்ஸா கேட்டார் "சிசு வளரியலுக்கு ஒத்துவராத பல விசயங்களை அரிஸ்டாட்டில் சொல்லியிருக்கின்றார். காப்பி அடித்திருந்தால் அனைத்தையும் தானே அடித்திருக்கவேண்டும்? அது எப்படி முஹம்மது (ஸல்) அவர்கள் சரியான ஒன்றை மட்டும் தேர்ந்தெடுத்துவிட்டு, தவறானவற்றை விலக்கியிருக்கின்றார்?'

யர்ஸ் ஒப்புக்கொள்ளவில்லை. குர்ஆனில் கூறப்பட்டுள்ள சிசு வளரியல் குறித்த கருத்துக்கள், அன்றைய கால மனிதர்களால் யூகிக்க கூடிய ஒன்றுதான் என்பதில் உறுதியோடு இருந்தார். முஹம்மது (ஸல்) அவர்கள், அன்றைய கால அறிஞர்களுடன் கலந்துரையாடி இந்த தகவல்களை பெற்றிருக்கவேண்டும் என்று சொல்ல, அதற்கு ஹம்ஸா "அப்படி இருந்தால் அதற்கு ஆதாரம் காட்ட முடியுமா?" என்று கேட்க, யர்ஸ் சிறிது நேரம் யோசிக்க ஆரம்பித்தார்.

பின்னர், "இது ஒரு நியாயமான யூகம்" என்று தன்னுடைய கருத்தை மாற்றிக்கொண்டார் மயர்ஸ் .

மற்றொரு சுவாரசிய நிகழ்வும் நடந்தது.

"இதே போன்ற கருத்துக்களை தான் மத நம்பிக்கையாளர்கள் திரும்ப திரும்ப கூறிக்கொண்டே இருக்கின்றீர்கள்" என்று யர்ஸ் கூற, திரும்ப அடித்தார் பாருங்கள் ஹம்ஸா.

"Professor Myers, உங்களுக்கு எப்படியிருக்கும்? நாத்திகர்கள் காலங்காலமாக இதே வாதங்களைதான் வைத்து கொண்டிருக்கின்றார்கள் என்று நான் சொன்னால் நீங்கள் எப்படி உணர்வீர்கள்? இப்படிதான் நாத்திகர்கள் பேசிக்கொண்டிருப்பார்கள் என நானும் சொல்லலாமா?" என்று கேட்க, சற்று யோசனைக்கு பிறகு புன்முறுவலோடு யர்ஸ் சொன்னார் "Go Ahead".

சிறிது நேரம் சென்று அறோன்ரா (AronRA) என்ற நாத்திகர் யர்ஸ்சுடன் சேர்ந்து கொண்டார்.

அவர் சொன்னார், "உங்கள் குர்ஆன் பரிணாமத்தை ஏற்றுக்கொள்ளவில்லை"

அதற்கு ரஷீத் சொன்னார், "பரிணாமத்தை பற்றி குர்ஆன் பேசவில்லை"

மறுபடியும் அறோன்ரா  "உங்கள் குரான் மாபெரும் வெள்ளத்தை பற்றி பேசுகின்றது" (கிருத்துவம் சொல்லக்கூடிய நூஹ் (அலை) அவர்களது வரலாறு அப்படியே குர்ஆனில் இருக்கும் என்று நினைத்திருப்பார் போல. குரான் சொல்லக்கூடிய வெள்ளம் கிருத்துவத்தில் உள்ளது போல அல்ல)

அதற்கு ரஷீத், "இதுவும் குர்ஆனில் இல்லை"

மறுபடியும், மலைகளை பற்றியும், அதன் செயலாற்றங்கள் குறித்தும் கேள்விகளை எழுப்பினர் முஸ்லிம்கள். எப்படி ஒரு பழங்கால புத்தகம் இவ்வளவு துல்லியமாக இந்த விசயத்தை கூறியிருக்க முடியும் என்று கேள்வி கேட்க, அதற்கு அறோன்ரா "நீங்கள் சொல்வது சிறு பகுதி மட்டுமே. மலைகள் விசயத்தில் இன்னும் பல செய்திகள் உள்ளன" என்று கூறினார். மொத்தத்தில், குரானின் மலைகள் பற்றிய தகவல்களை அவர்கள் மறுக்கவில்லை.

பின்னர் பேசப்பட்டதெல்லாம் நாம் அடிக்கடி கேள்விப்படும் வாதம்தான். அதாவது உணர்வுப்பூர்வமான வாதங்கள்

கடவுளை மறுக்க, இவர்களைப் போன்றவர்கள் கூட, அறிவியல் ஆதாரங்களை கொடுக்காமல், உணர்வுப்பூர்வமான வாதங்களை தான் வைக்கின்றனர். ம்ம்ம்...

உணர்வுரீதியாக கடவுளை மறுப்பது பற்றி பேசும்போது குர்ஆனின் பின்வரும் வசனம் நினைவுக்கு வருகின்றது, 

இன்னும், உம் இறைவன் வானவர்களை நோக்கி "நிச்சயமாக நான் பூமியில் ஒரு பிரதிநிதியை அமைக்கப் போகிறேன்" என்று கூறியபோது, அவர்கள் "நீ அதில் குழப்பத்தை உண்டாக்கி ரத்தம் சிந்துவோரையா அமைக்கப்போகிறாய்? இன்னும் நாங்களோ உன் புகழ் ஓதியவர்களாக உன்னை துதித்து, உன் பரிசுத்தத்தைப் போற்றியவர்களாக இருக்கின்றோம்" என்று கூறினார்கள்; அ(தற்கு இறை)வன்" நீங்கள் அறியாதவற்றையெல்லாம் நிச்சயமாக நான் அறிவேன்" எனக் கூறினான். --- Qur'an 2:30

கடைசியாக யர்ஸ்சிடம், "உங்கள் போக்குவரத்துக்கான செலவை நாங்களே ஏற்றுக்கொண்டு, எங்களுடன் ஒரு முழுமையான இதுபோன்ற உரையாடலுக்கு வரச்சொல்லி அழைத்தால் தாங்கள் வருவீர்களா?" என்று ஹம்ஸா கேட்க, அதற்கு "பார்க்கலாம்" என்று கூறினார் யர்ஸ்.

அதேநேரம், தன்னுடைய நிகழ்ச்சிக்கு (The Magic Sandwich Show) முஸ்லிம்களை அழைப்பதாக கூறினார் அறோன்ரா.

"அங்கு எனக்கு sandwich கிடைக்குமா? அது ஹலால் உணவுதானே" என்று ஹம்ஸா கேட்க அனைவரும் சிரித்துக்கொண்டே விடைபெற்றனர்

பின்னர் டாகின்ஸ்சுடன் சிறிது நேரம் உரையாடினார் ஹம்ஸா. எடுத்த எடுப்பிலேயே டாகின்ஸ் கேட்ட முதல் கேள்வி "நீங்கள் பரிணாமத்தை நம்புகின்றீர்களா?"

அதற்கு ஹம்ஸா சொன்ன பதிலை நான் மிகவும் ரசித்தேன். மிக அழகாக கூறினார், "என்னை கேட்கின்றீர்களா? நான் அந்த முடிவை எடுப்பதற்கான போதிய ஆதாரங்கள் இன்னும் இல்லை"

Wowwwww....

இந்த பதிலை கேட்ட டாகின்ஸ், "இது ஒரு அறிவார்ந்த பதில். நான் உங்களுக்கு ஆதாரங்கள் குறித்து விளக்குகின்றேன்" என்று ஆரம்பிக்க, அதற்கு மேல் நடந்த டாகின்ஸ்-ஹம்ஸா ஆகியோரது உரையாடலையும், நான் மேலே சொன்ன யர்ஸ்-அறோன்ரா-ஹம்ஸா-ரஷீத் ஆகியோரது விவாதத்தையும் காண கீழே உள்ள வீடியோவை பாருங்கள்.




இந்த வீடியோ குறித்து பதிவெழுதியிருக்கின்றனர் டாகின்ஸ்சும், யர்சும். அதில் இஸ்லாம் குறித்த அவர்களது அறியாமை தெள்ளத்தெளிவாக பளிச்சிடுகின்றது.

இவர்களது அறியாமையை உலகறியச்செய்யும் விதமாக அதிரடியான ஒரு வீடியோவை மூன்று நாட்களுக்கு முன்பு வெளியிட்டிருக்கின்றது IERA. அந்த வீடியோவை கீழே பார்க்கலாம்.




சுப்ஹானல்லாஹ்...எவ்வளவு பொறுமையாக, தெளிவாக விளக்குகின்றார் அட்னன் ரஷீத்.

இந்த மாநாட்டின்போது பல்வேறு சங்கடங்களை சந்தித்தபோதும் (கண்ணியமற்ற வார்த்தையை ஹம்ஸாவை நோக்கி பயன்படுத்தி தன்னை யாரென்று காட்டிக்கொடுத்திருக்கின்றார் டாகின்ஸ்), அவற்றையெல்லாம் இறைவனுக்காக பொறுத்து கொண்டு, இஸ்லாமை கொண்டு செல்வதில் மட்டுமே தங்களின் கவனத்தை செலுத்திய இந்த அற்புத உள்ளங்களுக்கு, இவ்வுலகிலும் மறுமையிலும் மிகச்சிறந்த கூலியை இறைவன் வழங்குவானாக...ஆமீன்.

இறுதியாக:

இந்த மாநாடு குறித்து மிக அருமையாக பின்வருவதை கூறினார் ரஷீத்,

இந்த மாநாட்டிலிருந்து வெளியே வந்த போது என்னுடைய இறைநம்பிக்கை மேலும் வலுவாகியிருப்பதை உணர்ந்தேன். 

இறைவா, எங்களை என்றென்றும் நேர்வழியில் செலுத்துவாயாக...ஆமீன்.

Please Note:
கடந்த காலங்களிலும் சரி, தற்போதும் சரி, விவாதத்திற்கு வருமாறு டாகின்ஸ்சை அழைத்தாகிவிட்டது.

எனக்கு புரியாத விஷயம் இதுதான். நாத்திகத்தை மேலும் கொண்டு செல்ல வேண்டுமென்றுதானே மாநாடு நடத்தினார்கள்? அவர்கள் எதனை ஆணித்தரமாக நம்புகின்றார்களோ அதனைப்பற்றி விவாதிக்கதானே அழைக்கின்றோம்? கலந்து கொள்வதில் என்ன தயக்கம்? சமூகத்தில் நன்கு அறியப்பட்ட மற்ற சில நாத்திகர்கள் கலந்து கொள்ளும்போது டாகின்ஸ்சுக்கு மட்டும் என்ன பிரச்சனை?

அவருக்கே வெளிச்சம்.

இறைவா, நீ நாடுவோரில் டாகின்ஸ்சையும் சேர்த்து கொள்வாயாக...ஆமீன்.

அல்லாஹ்வே எல்லாம் அறிந்தவன்.

IERA's Official Website:
1. http://www.iera.org.uk. link

Brother Hamza's official website and blog:
1. http://www.hamzatzortzis.com. link
2. hamzatzortzis.blogspot.com. link

Br.Hamza's debate with Ed Bucker:
1. Islam or Atheism? You decide - youtube. link

References:
1. IERA DAWAH TEAM RESPONDS TO INTERNATIONAL ATHEISM - IERA website. link
2. IERA engages with PZ Myers, AronRa & Richard Dawkins at the World Atheist Convention - Youtube. link
3. Adnan Rashid Responds to Richard Dawkins, AronRa & PZ Myers - Youtube. link 
4. Islamic bore talks over PZ Myers - Richard Dawkins Website. link
5. The full Muslim monty - PZ Myers blog. link 

உங்கள் சகோதரன்,
ஆஷிக் அஹ்மத் அ







100 comments:

  1. MOHAMMED SHAFI ABDUL AZEEZMonday, June 13, 2011

    அஸ்ஸலாமு அலைக்கும்
    மாஷா அல்லாஹ் மிக அருமையான மிகவும் தேவையான பதிவு சகோ.

    ReplyDelete
  2. சகோதரர் ஷபி,

    வ அலைக்கும் ஸலாம் (வரஹ்)..

    எல்லாப் புகழும் இறைவன் ஒருவனுக்கே உரித்தாவதாக...தங்களின் வருகைக்கும், கருத்துக்கும் நன்றி...

    உங்கள் சகோதரன்,
    ஆஷிக் அஹ்மத் அ

    ReplyDelete
  3. அஸ்ஸலாமு அலைக்கும்! அருமை சகோ ஆஷிக்!

    தமிழ் விவாதக் களத்தில் கூட நாத்திகர்கள் சூடாவதைப் பல இடங்களில் பார்க்கிறோம். ஏன் இவர்கள் விவாதத்துக்கு வர அச்சப்படுகிறார்கள் என்பது விளங்கவில்லை. சிறந்த பதிவை பதிந்தமைக்கு நன்றி!

    எல்லாப் புகழும் இறைவனுக்கே!

    ReplyDelete
  4. சகோதரர் சுவனப்பிரியன்,

    வ அலைக்கும் ஸலாம்,

    நாத்திகர்களுடன் விவாதித்தது தன் இறைநம்பிக்கையை அதிகரித்திருப்பதாக ரஷீத் கூறியிருப்பது நமக்கும் பொருந்துமல்லவா??? சுப்ஹானல்லாஹ்.. நாமும் இத்தகைய அனுபவத்தை பெற்றவர்கள் தானே :) நம்முடைய இறைநம்பிக்கையும் நாத்திகர்களால் அதிகரித்து கொண்டு தானே இருக்கின்றது?? :)

    தங்களின் வருகைக்கும் ஊக்கத்திற்கும் நன்றி,

    உங்கள் சகோதரன்,
    ஆஷிக் அஹ்மத் அ

    ReplyDelete
  5. அஸ்ஸலாமு அலைக்கும் வரஹ்..

    இறைவன் மிகத் தூய்மையானவன்..

    அனைவருக்கும் புரியும்படி விளக்கியுள்ளீர்கள். இஸ்லாத்தை எத்தி வைக்கும் சகோதரர்களுக்கு அல்லாஹ் வெற்றியை தந்தருள்வானாக! டாக்கின்ஸ் அவர்களுக்கும் ஹிதாயத்தை தந்தருள்வானாக!

    ReplyDelete
  6. அஸ்ஸலாமு அலைக்கும் வரஹ்
    மாஷா அல்லாஹ்.. சகோதரர் ஆஷிக்யிடமிருந்து மீண்டும் ஒரு அழகிய தகவல்..
    ம்ம்ம்..சரிதான் வேறென்ன சொல்ல முடியும்... அல்லாஹ் நமக்கும் அவர்களுக்கும் நேர்வழி வழங்க போதுமானவன்..!

    ReplyDelete
  7. சகோதரர் பாஸித்,

    வ அலைக்கும் ஸலாம்,

    தங்களின் வருகைக்கும் கருத்துக்கும் நன்றி,

    உங்கள் சகோதரன்,
    ஆஷிக் அஹ்மத் அ

    ReplyDelete
  8. வ அலைக்கும் ஸலாம் சகோதரர் குலாம்,

    ------
    அல்லாஹ் நமக்கும் அவர்களுக்கும் நேர்வழி வழங்க போதுமானவன்..!
    --------

    ஆமீன். வருகைக்கும் கருத்துக்கும் நன்றி...

    உங்கள் சகோதரன்,
    ஆஷிக் அஹ்மத் அ

    ReplyDelete
  9. பயனுள்ள அருமையான பதிவும் காணொளிகளும்.

    வாழ்த்துகள்!

    ReplyDelete
  10. அன்பு அண்ணன் வஹ்ஹாபி அவர்களுக்கு,

    அஸ்ஸலாமு அலைக்கும் வ ரஹ்மதுல்லாஹி வபர காத்துஹு...

    தங்களின் வருகைக்கும் ஊக்கத்திற்கும் நன்றி...

    உங்கள் சகோதரன்,
    ஆஷிக் அஹமத் அ

    ReplyDelete
  11. அஸ்ஸலாமு அலைக்கும்
    மாஷா அல்லாஹ் வாழ்த்துகள்!

    ReplyDelete
  12. சகோதரர் jr,

    வ அலைக்கும் சலாம்,

    வருகைக்கும் கருத்துக்கும் நன்றி சகோதரர்

    உங்கள் சகோதரன்,
    ஆஷிக் அஹமத் அ

    ReplyDelete
  13. அஸ்ஸலாமு அலைக்கும்.

    மாஷா அல்லாஹ்,

    அவர்களின் உறுதியான ஈமானை கண்டு நெஞ்சம் நெகிழ்கிறது, கண்கள் வெல்லத்தில் நிறைகிறது.

    அத்னன் ராஷித் அவர்கள் அந்த அவையில் பேசும்போது, அங்கு அவர்கள் அனைவரும் கேலிபேசி சிரித்தும், அங்கு அவரின் ஈமான் மிலிர்கிறது.என்ன ஈமானிய பலம்.

    யா அல்லாஹ் யாரெல்லாம் இஸ்லாத்தினை இந்த உலக மக்களுக்கு எடுத்துசொல்லுகிறார்களோ அவர்கள் அனைவரின் ஈமானையும் நீ பலபடுத்துவாயாக!, அவர்களுக்கு உன் வீட்டில் சிறந்த வீட்டினை கொடுத்தருள்வாயாக!, இஸ்லாத்தினை முழுமூச்சாக பின்பற்றிவாழும் மக்களாக ஆக்கி அருள்புரிவயாக! ஆமீன்.

    சகோதரர் ஆஷிக் அவர்களே, உங்கள் கட்டுரை என்னும் முத்துமாலையில் மீண்டுமோர் முத்து.....

    மாஸலாமா,

    அன்புடன்,

    காதர் மைதீன்.

    ReplyDelete
  14. அஸ்ஸலாமு அலைக்கும் வரஹ்...
    சகோ.ஆஷிக் அஹமத்,

    இறைப்பணியில் ஈடுபட்டிருக்கும் சகோதரர்களுக்கு ஆக்கப்பூர்வமான தகவல்கள். அருமையான வழிகாட்டல்கள். தெளிவான பகிர்வு.

    ஆதாரமற்ற மூடநம்பிக்கைகளை அடிப்படைக்கொள்கைகளாக கொண்ட...
    "நாத்திகர்கள் தம்மை பகுத்தறிவாளர்கள்" என்றழைத்துக்கொள்வது...

    இனி...

    "முரண்தொடை"

    ...என்று அழைக்கப்படல் வேண்டும்..!

    ReplyDelete
  15. சகோதரர் காதர் மைதீன்,

    வ அலைக்கும் ஸலாம்.

    எப்படி எப்படியெல்லாம் இஸ்லாமை தவறாக புரிந்து கொள்ளமுடியுமோ அப்படியெல்லாம் புரிந்து கொண்டிருக்கின்றார்கள். இஸ்லாம் கூறுவது "Anthromorphic" இறைவனாம். என்னத்தை சொல்வது????

    இன்னும் கொடுமை என்னவென்றால், பெண்கள் வன்புணர்ச்சி செய்யப்பட்டால், அதற்கு நான்கு சாட்சி கொண்டுவர வேண்டுமென்று ஷரியத் சொல்கின்றதாம். இவர்களை என்னவென்று சொல்வது?

    இதற்காகத்தான் IERA அந்த வீடியோவை வெளியிட்டு இவர்களது முகத்திரையை கிழித்தது. இந்த "இஸ்லாமிய" அறிவோடு இவர்கள் விவாதத்திற்கு வந்தால் அவ்வளவுதான். முஸ்லிம்களுக்கு அல்வா சாப்பிடுவது போலவான சந்தர்ப்பம் இது.

    நாத்திகம் பற்றி பேசவாவது வரலாம். ஆனால் அதுவும் கஷ்டம்தான்.

    தங்களின் வருகைக்கும் கருத்துக்கும் நன்றி,

    உங்கள் சகோதரன்,
    ஆஷிக் அஹ்மத் அ

    ReplyDelete
  16. அன்புச் சகோதரர் ஆஷிக் அஹ்மத் ,

    அஸ்ஸலாமு அலைக்கும் வரஹ்மதுல்லாஹி வ பரகாதுஹு,

    மற்றுமொரு மிக சிறந்த பதிவை வழங்கியமைக்கு மிக்க நன்றி !

    சகோதரர் அத்னான் ரஷித் அவர்களின் அறிவு பூர்வமான கேள்விகளுக்கு Prof Myerz அவர்கள் ஆதாரபூர்வமான பதில்களை கொடுத்திருக்க வேண்டும் , ஆனால் நிரூபிக்க படாத கோட்பாடையே பதிலுரைக்கிறார்.

    சிந்திக்கும் மனித மூளைக்கு எவ்வளவு நாள் இந்த உணர்வு பூர்வமாக பதில் போதுமானதாகும் ? நாத்திகர்கள் பொறுமையாக சித்தித்து உணருவார்களையானால் இன்ஷா அல்லாஹ் தங்களது மெய்யான இறைவனை நிச்சயம் கண்டு கொள்வார்கள். இன்ஷாஅல்லாஹ் நாமும் துவா செய்யோம் அல்லாஹ் அவர்களுக்கு ஹிதாயத் வழங்கிட.

    தமிழகத்திலும் இது போன்ற கலந்துரையாடல்களை இப்போது காண்பது மகிழ்ச்சி தரக்கூடியது . பல்லாண்டு காலம் நாத்திகத்தை போதித்த சகோதரர் அப்துல்லாஹ் அவர்கள் இஸ்லாத்தை தன் வாழ்க்கை நெறியாக ஏற்று கொண்டது போல் இன்னும் நாத்திகர்கள் இது போன்ற கலந்துரையாடல்களில் அவசியம் கலந்து கொண்டு கருதுரைப்பார்களையானால் நிச்சயம் முஸ்லீம்கள் அவர்களுக்கு ஏகத்துவத்தை எடுத்து இயம்ப ஆர்வமாகவே இருக்கிறோம் அல்லாஹ்வின் துணைக்கொண்டு.

    அன்புடன்
    அபூ நஸீஹா

    ReplyDelete
  17. அன்புச் சகோதரர் ஆஷிக் அஹ்மது,
    அஸ்ஸலாமு அலைக்கும்.

    தங்களின் அற்புதமான இந்தப் பதிவை நன்றியுடன் மீள்பதிவு செய்துள்ளோம் : http://www.satyamargam.com/1730.

    ஜஸாக்கல்லாஹு கைரா!

    ReplyDelete
  18. assalamu alayikum
    ungaludaya blog el ulla sila post galayi ennudaya blog la sinhalaththil molipeyarppu seyya anumadi tharuvirgala

    ReplyDelete
  19. சத்தியமார்க்கம் குழுவினருக்கு,

    வ அலைக்கும் சலாம்,

    நன்றி. ஜஜாக்கல்லாஹு க்ஹைர்.

    தங்களுடைய தாவாஹ் பணி மேலும் சிறக்க எல்லாம் வல்ல இறைவன் துணை புரிவானாக...ஆமீன்

    உங்கள் சகோதரன்,
    ஆஷிக் அஹமத் அ

    ReplyDelete
  20. சகோதரர் ரிஷான்,

    வ அலைக்கும் சலாம்,

    -----
    ungaludaya blog el ulla sila post galayi ennudaya blog la sinhalaththil molipeyarppu seyya anumadi tharuvirgala
    -----

    தாராளமாக சகோதரர். செய்யுங்கள்.

    தங்களின் வருகைக்கு நன்றி...

    உங்கள் சகோதரன்,
    ஆஷிக் அஹமத் அ

    ReplyDelete
  21. Romba jaalra saththam kekkuthae :)

    ReplyDelete
  22. அஸ்ஸலாமு அலைக்கும்

    @Anonymous



    2:171. அந்த இறை நிராகரிப்பவர்களுக்கு உதாரணம்
    என்னவென்றால்; ஒரு (ஆடு, மாடு மேய்ப்ப)வனின் கூப்பாட்டையும், கூச்சலையும் தவிர வேறெதையம் கேட்டு, அறிய இயலாதவை(கால் நடை) போன்றவர்கள்; அவர்கள் செவிடர்களாகவும், ஊமையர்களாகவும், குருடர்களாகவும் இருக்கின்றனர்; அவர்கள் எ(ந்த நற்போ)தனையும் உணர்ந்து கொள்ளமாட்டார்கள்.

    திரு அனானிமஸ் அவர்களுக்கு இதைவிட பெரிய பதில் வேறதுவும் இருக்க முடியாது.

    ReplyDelete
  23. mohamed ribnas
    @ kathermaitheen

    super answerunkanno

    ReplyDelete
  24. சகோதரர் முகம்மது ஆஷிக்,

    வ அலைக்கும் ஸலாம்,

    -------
    ஆதாரமற்ற மூடநம்பிக்கைகளை அடிப்படைக்கொள்கைகளாக கொண்ட...
    "நாத்திகர்கள் தம்மை பகுத்தறிவாளர்கள்" என்றழைத்துக்கொள்வது...
    ---------

    நம்மூரில் மட்டும் தானே இப்படி...உலகளவில் இப்படி கிடையாதே....

    ----
    இனி...
    "முரண்தொடை"
    ...என்று அழைக்கப்படல் வேண்டும்..!
    -----

    நாம் ஏற்கனவே இப்படி அழைத்து கொண்டுதானே இருக்கின்றோம். இன்னும் வீரியமாக அழைப்போம். இன்ஷா அல்லாஹ்.

    தங்களின் வருகைக்கும் கருத்துக்கும் நன்றி...

    உங்கள் சகோதரன்,
    ஆஷிக் அஹ்மத் அ

    ReplyDelete
  25. சகோதரர் Abu Naseeha,

    வ அலைக்கும் ஸலாம் வ ரஹ்மதுல்லாஹி வபர காத்துஹு

    -------
    சிந்திக்கும் மனித மூளைக்கு எவ்வளவு நாள் இந்த உணர்வு பூர்வமாக பதில் போதுமானதாகும் ?
    ------

    நிச்சயமாக போதாது. உணர்வுப்பூர்வமான வாதங்கள் ஆதாரங்கள் ஆகாது.

    ----
    இது போன்ற கலந்துரையாடல்களில் அவசியம் கலந்து கொண்டு கருதுரைப்பார்களையானால் நிச்சயம் முஸ்லீம்கள் அவர்களுக்கு ஏகத்துவத்தை எடுத்து இயம்ப ஆர்வமாகவே இருக்கிறோம்
    ----

    இன்ஷா அல்லாஹ்,

    தங்களின் வருகைக்கும் கருத்துக்கும் நன்றி,

    உங்கள் சகோதரன்,
    ஆஷிக் அஹ்மத் அ

    ReplyDelete
  26. சகோதரர் அனானி,

    உங்கள் மீது சாந்தியும் சமாதானமும் நிலவுவதாக...ஆமீன்.

    ----
    Anonymous said...
    Romba jaalra saththam kekkuthae :)
    -----

    இது போன்ற வாக்கியங்கள் எங்களை எந்தவிதத்திலும் சட்டை செய்யபோவதில்லை. வேறு ஏதாவது வழி இருந்தால் முயற்சிக்கவும். Better luck next time...

    உங்களுக்கு நேர்வழி காட்ட இறைவன் போதுமானவன்...

    நன்றி,

    உங்கள் சகோதரன்,
    ஆஷிக் அஹ்மத் அ

    ReplyDelete
  27. வஜீர் அலி அஹ்மதுThursday, June 16, 2011

    அஸ்ஸலாமு அலைக்கும் வரஹ் .....

    சகோதரர் ஆஷிக் அஹ்மத்

    அருமையான பதிவு
    Embryology:சம்மந்தமான உரையாடலில்
    அதுனன் ரஷீத் ,PZ-ஐ மடக்கிய (23:14)-ல் உள்ள சும்ம(ثُمَّ) என்ற வார்த்தையுன் அர்த்தம் பற்றிய நிகழ்வை பதித்திருந்தால் இன்னும் அருமையாக இருந்திருக்கும்

    (23:14)ثُمَّ خَلَقْنَا النُّطْفَةَ عَلَقَةً فَخَلَقْنَا الْعَلَقَةَ مُضْغَةً فَخَلَقْنَا الْمُضْغَةَ عِظَامًا فَكَسَوْنَا الْعِظَامَ لَحْمًا ثُمَّ أَنشَأْنَاهُ خَلْقًا آخَرَ فَتَبَارَكَ اللَّهُ أَحْسَنُ الْخَالِقِينَ

    எப்படியல்லாம் அல்லாஹ் அவர்களுக்கு TWIST வைத்துள்ளான் என்பதை வருணிக்க வார்த்தைகள் இல்லை மாஷால்லாஹ்!!!

    இன்னும்,எங்கள் கடமை (இறைவனின் தூது செய்தியை) விளக்கமாக எடுத்துச்சொல்வது தவிர வேறில்லை (36:17) என்ற வசனத்தை ஹம்சா,அதுனன் ரஷீத் மற்றும் நீங்களும் உண்மைபடுதியுள்ளிர்

    வல்ல அல்லாஹ்விற்கே எல்லா புகழும்

    ReplyDelete
  28. அஸ்ஸலாமு அலைக்கும் நல்ல பதிவு உங்களின் முயற்சிக்கு எல்லாம் வல்ல இறைவன் உருதுணை இருக்க வேண்டுகிறேன்

    ReplyDelete
  29. சகோதரர் வஜீர் அலி,

    வ அலைக்கும் சலாம்,

    'தும்ம' என்ற வார்த்தை குறித்து எழுதியிருந்தால் பதிவு மிக நீண்டதாக ஆகி இருக்கும். ஏனென்றால் மயர்ஸ் சொன்ன கூற்று சரியென்றாலும் இதில் உள்ளார்ந்த ரீதியாக மேலும் பல விஷயங்கள் உள்ளன. இதனை பாருங்கள்...

    http://www.medicine4faith.net/?p=53

    அனைத்தையும் விளக்க வேண்டி வரும் என்றுதான் விட்டுவிட்டேன்.

    தங்களுடைய வருகைக்கும், ஆரோக்கியமாக ஆலோசனைக்கும் நன்றி..

    உங்கள் சகோதரன்,
    ஆஷிக் அஹமத் அ

    ReplyDelete
  30. சகோதரர் S.Bathuhur,

    வ அலைக்கும் சலாம்,

    தங்களுடைய வருகைக்கும், ஊக்கத்திற்கும் நன்றி..

    உங்கள் சகோதரன்,
    ஆஷிக் அஹமத் அ

    ReplyDelete
  31. //இப்படி சொன்னவர் ஒரு பல்கலைகழக விரிவுரையாளர்//

    சகோ. அவர் யாரென்று சொன்னால் நன்றாக இருக்கும்.
    நன்றி

    ReplyDelete
  32. சகோதரர் நரேன்,

    உங்கள் மீது இறைவனின் சாந்தியும், சமாதானமும் நிலவுவதாக...அமீன்.

    -----
    சகோ. அவர் யாரென்று சொன்னால் நன்றாக இருக்கும்.
    ------

    இவர் தன்னை டாக்டர் கிறிஸ்டியன் என்று அறிமுகப்படுத்தி கொள்கின்றார். டாகின்ஸ் தளத்தில் உள்ள இவருடைய profile லிங்க் கீழே

    http://richarddawkins.net/profiles/174604

    நான் இந்த பதிவின் அடியில் கொடுத்திருக்கும் டாகின்ஸ் தளத்தின் லிங்கில் சென்று, கமெண்ட் நம்பர் 75யை பாருங்கள். அதில் பின்வருமாறு அவர் தெரிவிக்கின்றார்.

    I am a university lecturer in Birmingham, England, and a significant proportion of my students every year come from the large Muslim community here. I definitely detected a higher level of 'sophistication' than I am used to, in this video. I think they basically succeeded in what they were trying to do, which was to give the impression to their own community that the infidels could be challenged on equal terms. Their target audience was their own community, not us. They WERE prepared, and they largely achieved what they wanted to do in my view. Fools they were not.

    தங்களுடைய வருகைக்கும் கருத்துக்கும் நன்றி,

    உங்கள் சகோதரன்,
    ஆஷிக் அஹ்மத் அ

    ReplyDelete
  33. There was no GOD at all,

    ReplyDelete
  34. Brother Anony,

    May peace and blessings of the Almighty be upon you...

    ---
    There was no GOD at all,
    ---

    There was GOD and there is GOD..

    thanks for visiting. why don't u give a try at Qur'an. If u r interesting pls send me a mail (aashiq.ahamed.14@gmail.com). i will send u the softcopy...

    May Allah(swt) help you to find the truth...

    Your brother,
    Aashiq Ahamed A

    ReplyDelete
  35. MASHA ALLAH
    JAZAKALLAH HAIRAN FOR INFO.

    ReplyDelete
  36. சகோதரர் Mohamed Himas Nilar,

    அஸ்ஸலாமு அலைக்கும்,

    வருகைக்கும் கருத்துக்கும் நன்றி சகோதரர்.

    உங்கள் சகோதரன்,
    ஆஷிக் அஹமத் அ

    ReplyDelete
  37. Aashiq Ahamed, Can you tell what is meant by 'Thumma'. In the video I see the Muslim brother talking about that word.

    ReplyDelete
  38. What is meant by "Thumma". I see Adnan Rashid describing that word to PZ. Can you describe it for me.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Dear Anony and Lord Voldemort,

    Assalaamu alaikum,

    Hope u both are one and the same even though ur profile shows different IP address...

    ---------
    What is meant by "Thumma". I see Adnan Rashid describing that word to PZ. Can you describe it for me.
    ---------

    brother, please watch the second video in the post. Br.Adnan Rashid addresses it..

    Hope this helps,

    thanks and take care,

    Your brother,
    Aashiq Ahamed A

    ReplyDelete
  40. Dear brother Lord Voldemort,

    May peace and blessings of Almighty be upon you and your family...

    There is some problem in blogger i believe. I received your last comment by mail (infact 4 of them with same content) but surprisingly i didn't see none of them appear on my blogger dashboard. If they didn't appear on my dashboard, i could not publish it.

    Anyhow no issues...I will publish it on my name here (obviously, if i publish no comment moderation for me :) :)).

    ---------------------------------------------
    Lord Voldemort has left a new comment on your post "உலக நாத்திகர் மாநாட்டில் முஸ்லிம்கள் விவாதம்...":

    Hi,
    You are correct. My comments did not reflect on blog so I used Lord Voldemort. But apparently both the comments appeared on refresing the page. In my region,the IP is dynamic for ADSL.

    I watched both the videos and they are revelation to me. (LOL)

    10.47 -------------chewed flesh-------- I am not talking about that. (Why is he skipping the point)

    11.30 -------------'thumma' in arabic is STRAIGHT AFTER by Hamza

    19.58 -------------'thumma' is SIMULTANEOUSLY and linguistically quran is correct by Adnan (I liked PZ expression to this)

    22.58 -------------what is it for--- blah blah by Hamza (Not even one valid point)

    In second video,
    Adnan says 'thumma' is things happening simultaneously or immediately.

    I checked 3 websites to translate 'thumma' in english and nowhere, i mean nowhere it says SIMULTANEOUSLY or IMMEDIATELY. Can you help me with any translation that I missed. I am downloading the lexicon which he mentioned, it is 8 volumes and I will check in lexicon also.

    My question is simple. Do you really require to twist the words and translations to say a simple sentence? Why contradict (Hamza and Adnan) with a single word 'Thumma'?.

    Thanks.
    - Hide quoted text -

    Publish
    Delete
    Mark as spam

    Moderate comments for this blog.

    ReplyDelete
  41. In the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most wonderful....

    Dear brother Lord Voldemort,

    May peace and blessings of the Almighty be upon you...

    ///My question is simple. Do you really require to twist the words and translations to say a simple sentence? Why contradict (Hamza and Adnan) with a single word 'Thumma'?.///

    Brother, I am simply wondering how could you utter such words without proper research on Arabic Grammer. The word "thumma" has different meanings. Qur'an itself is a classic example for this. And if you see Arabic poetry, you will find this word used in different meanings as well.

    Fine, first-of-all, hamza and adnan didn't contradict each-other. Wiktionary, a part of wikipedia gives the translation of thumma as "then", "moreover", and "simultaneously". Wanna check out??, click here

    Fine, then, in Qur'an and Arabic poetry, the very same word is used in the meanings such as "still", "and" etc...(if you need evidence, you can check-out for Qur'an verse 6:1 and ibn Ma'lik's famous poetic book on Arabic Grammar "alfiah al-Ma'lik").

    Arabic is that kind of a language. So Hamza and Adnan are correct in what they are presenting. But my own opinion on the subject differs. Embryology is very complex of a subject. In either-way, that doesn't contradict to what Qur'an says.

    So brother, there is no contradiction here. If you need further explanation on the subject, Insha Allah, If Allah gives me that knowledge, I am ready to address it.

    Hope this clears your question...

    Finally, Why don't u give a try to read Qur'an in Tamil/English??...U need not read it as God' words, instead, Just as a novel. If u wanna give a try, kindly mail me. I will send you the tamil translation of meanings of Qur'an. Insha allah.

    May Allah(swt) bless u and ur family with immense peace and happiness...

    Thanks and take care,

    Your brother,
    Aashiq Ahamed A

    ReplyDelete
  42. There is an important detail that you should really pay attention to. The verse Adnan referred is 23:14 and it talks about the formation of bones, and flesh/muscle does not use the word 'thumma'. The word used is 'fa'. I wonder what Adnan thinking when he made a such a openly dishonour statement.
    So now lets check the wikitionary for 'fa'. (lol). I checked in the lexicon which Adnan recommended and lets see what it says. "and it is said to occur sometimes in the sense of 'thumma' denoting conjuction in an absolute manner, with delay;) This is saying 'thumma and 'fa' are things happening in progression with the delay in time between and guess what is given as an example for such a use of the word 'thumma' or 'fa'. I leave the guess to you and you tell me the verse in your reply.
    "Brother, I am simply wondering how could you utter such words without proper research on Arabic Grammer." (Said by our nobel Aashiq Ahamed A)

    I read your reference 6.1 and it says "Praise be Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth, and made the darkness and the light. Yet those who reject Faith hold (others) as equal, with their Guardian-Lord." Nowhere it is mentioned 'then' or 'hereafter' or 'moreover' or 'SIMULTANEOUSLY'. In fact if you use 'moreover or simultaneously' instead of 'and'--- I think you know the amplitude of mistake.:)

    I read the translation of quran in the site called http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php and http://quranexplorer.com/Quran/Default.aspx#.TkafIu_NyqA.facebook

    Yusuf Ali--------'Thumma' is 'Then' (verse 23:14)
    Habib Shakir---'Thumma' is 'Then' (verse 23:14)
    Pickthal--------'Thumma' is 'Then' (verse 23:14)

    I personally like translation by Yusuf Ali. I liked his english and style.

    I guess 99% of translations tell 'thumma' is then and pretty confident that 100% translations tell 'fa' is straight after with delay in time.
    These translations will be valid unless you people go and change them according to your convenience.
    I am ready to discuss embroyology and I can say with confident that the embroyology defined in quran is not a science.
    BTW what happened to chewed flesh and mountains blah blah.

    Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Brother Lord Voldemort,

    Assalaamu Alaikum,

    I could not spend much time since i am in work now. Insha Allah will come and comment in the night...

    Anyhow, just for now

    ///The verse Adnan referred is 23:14 and it talks about the formation of bones, and flesh/muscle does not use the word 'thumma'.///

    Oooooooooppppsss...brother, If I show you, that verse contains the word "thumma", What will be your response???

    Thanks and take cake,

    Your brother,
    Aashiq Ahamed A

    ReplyDelete
  44. Lord Voldemort has left a new comment on your post "உலக நாத்திகர் மாநாட்டில் முஸ்லிம்கள் விவாதம்...":

    Hi,

    \\Oooooooooppppsss...brother, If I show you, that verse contains the word "thumma", What will be your response???\\

    I already showed none of the translations of quran say 'thumma' or 'fa' is simultaneously.
    I am making your life easy by showing the verse by myself.

    Quran Chapter 23:14 is

    "Thumma khalaqna alnnutfata AAalaqatan fakhalaqna alAAalaqata mudghatan fakhalaqna almudghata AAithaman fakasawna alAAithama lahman thumma ansha/nahu khalqan akhara fatabaraka Allahu ahsanu alkhaliqeena"

    Am I correct. If not please correct me. I took this english pronunciation from arabic to english in google. (Tough Job)

    Now can you explain me the meaning of 'thumma' in the begining of the verse and 'fa' (3 times) in between the verse.

    Again I will make your life easy by translating it into english from http://quranexplorer.com/Quran/Default.aspx#.TkafIu_NyqA.facebook

    "Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus)lump; then We made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh;then We developed out of it another creature: so blessed be Allah, the best to create!"

    Oooooooooppppsss...brother, I showed you, that verse contains the word "thumma" once and "fa" thrice. But none of them says SIMULTANEOUSLY. What will be your response???

    Thanks and take care.

    Note: I am undergoing Arabic speaking course for the sake of my career development. I think I can answer you well with my own understanding of that language in days forward. As of now goole is my mentor for translations. The lexicon Adnan recommended is fantastic and believe me it doesn't say 'thumma' or 'fa' is Simultaneous. Check it out for yourself.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Dear Brother Lord Voldemort,

    Assalaamu Alaikum,

    Let me tell you something. There are good number of people now following this discussion. And I do not want to waste their time and ofcourse of us.

    By this time, people would have understood what you are trying to do... contradictory Statements. Fine brother, let us go ahead by point-by-point. This will help people to follow better (also i could not spend more time to write long statements now)

    Lets start,

    you initially said ///The verse Adnan referred is 23:14 and it talks about the formation of bones, and flesh/muscle does not use the word 'thumma'/////

    I asked ///.brother, If I show you, that verse contains the word "thumma", What will be your response???////

    Pls comment, How could you make such a blind statement???..do u accept your mistake??...Make a straight forward answer.

    I know how atheists act, and i believe you are not one among those kind of atheists....

    By the way, ///brother, I showed you, that verse contains the word "thumma" once and "fa" thrice.///

    again u are wrong...

    Thanks and take care,

    Your brother,
    Aashiq Ahamed A

    ReplyDelete
  46. Dear brother Lord Voldemort,

    Assalaamu Alaikum,

    I keep on wondering why your comments are not appearing on my dashboard now and then...

    ----------------------
    Lord Voldemort has left a new comment on your post "உலக நாத்திகர் மாநாட்டில் முஸ்லிம்கள் விவாதம்...":

    Hi,

    I am not wrong Aashiq, I think you are missing the point. My assertion is the word Thumma is not used in this verse in context of embryo transformation.
    I said the verse uses Thumma in the beginning to start the statement "Then". The verse continues without using Thumma and instead uses Fa.
    What Adnan says is the embroyology described in Quran is correct because it uses the word Thumma which means linguistically "simultaneously". So lets frame the translation as per his notion.
    "Simultaneously We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus)lump; then We made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh;then We developed out of it another creature: so blessed be Allah, the best to create!"

    Does it makes sense?

    In fact not even a single translation of quran tells this verse in the above stated manner. I already gave you couple of translations. The transformation from clot to lump and lump to bones and bones to flesh is written with the word FA and not THUMMA. This is the point I am asserting to you and concluded that Adnan made a openly dishonest statement. Now tell me who is wrong, Adnan or Lord Voldemort?

    Being given to understand the verse with Thumma and Fa as correct meanings described in Lexicon, the Quran's description of embroyology is not science.

    Please open your eyes and read the verse carefully and watch the videos. It is not rocket science. Try to be rational for once. Atleast.

    Thank You.

    Please come up with credible answer before 20th of this month. I will be busy after that for a new project.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Dear brother,

    Assalaamu Alaikum,

    -----
    I am not wrong Aashiq, I think you are missing the point.
    ------

    Whoever read your comment will understand that in that way only brother...ok anyhow leave it brother..

    -----------
    I said the verse uses Thumma in the beginning to start the statement "Then". The verse continues without using Thumma and instead uses Fa.
    -----------

    Again you are wrong brother. I already told you this when you said // that verse contains the word "thumma" once and "fa" thrice//...

    Thumma not only comes "once" in that verse and also "fa" does not appear only "thrice" in that verse.

    Thumma not only used in the beginning of that verse. (if you are referring to some anti-islam sites, be careful brother. they tell you only half-truths)

    Usage of 'Fa' is different. It joins with other letters whereas thumma stands out (in this verse).

    thanks and take care,

    Your brother,
    Aashiq Ahamed A

    ReplyDelete
  48. Lord Voldemort has left a new comment on your post "உலக நாத்திகர் மாநாட்டில் முஸ்லிம்கள் விவாதம்...":

    Hi,

    I thought you are a intelligent chap who can comprehend the gist in the discussion.

    Let me show your in'competency in this thread.
    1. I gave you the video timing to say Adnan and Hamza contradicted on Thumma but you said both are correct because Thumma has got three meanings.
    Fine with three meanings but why the translations of quran never considered the other meanings like moreover and simultaneously.
    (Still I did not get any answer for this point.)

    2. I said the verse Adnan referred to is 23:14 and it did not contain the word Thumma. When I said 'it did not contain the word Thumma' I meant the words used for embryo transformation. I misjudged your understanding on the point. You wasted two comments section for this.
    (Still I did not get any answer for this point.)

    3. I asked about chewed flesh part.
    (Still I did not get any answer for this point.)

    4. I asked about Hamza blabbering on mountains
    (Still I did not get any answer for this point.)

    Now, atlast you come up with a blank statement
    \\Thumma not only comes "once" in that verse and also "fa" does not appear only "thrice" in that verse.

    Thumma not only used in the beginning of that verse. (if you are referring to some anti-islam sites, be careful brother. they tell you only half-truths)

    Usage of 'Fa' is different. It joins with other letters whereas thumma stands out (in this verse). \\

    I provided the references in quran translations, lexicons, arabic to english words and the verses. Did you give any proof to back your blank statement? I need atleast one credible proof from quran to back your blank statement. I recommend you to hear the recitation of quran and count the words 'thumma' and 'fa' and give me the meaning for these two words. I also want you to quote the exact verse of 23:14 with Arabic and English translations and explain it to me. Maybe you will understand my point then (thumma).lol.
    Hey bro, I did not refer any anti-islam sites because I can't refer them in this part of the world. I got brains to analyse and I got the information from your blog. What else you require and after all it is not quantum mechanics.

    Thank You

    Publish
    Delete
    Mark as spam

    ReplyDelete
  49. In the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most wonderful...

    Assalaamu Alaikum,

    Brother, Kindly do not get tensed. My aim was not to hurt you. Allah knows by mind. If I hurted you in anyway, I seek sorry from u. Pardon me for that.

    Brother, you didn't allow me to enter into proper discussion. I always felt you are coming out with contradictory statements which are the result of poor research. That is why I keep on reminding you.

    Nobody is a loser or winner. Let truth be the winner.

    Having said that, let me move into your first point.

    ///1. I gave you the video timing to say Adnan and Hamza contradicted on Thumma but you said both are correct because Thumma has got three meanings.
    Fine with three meanings but why the translations of quran never considered the other meanings like moreover and simultaneously.
    (Still I did not get any answer for this point.)///

    This is what frustrates me brother. Again you see, you are coming out with invalid comments. The answer is out there. If you have done a proper research, you would have found out the answer by yourself.

    I believe you told me, you have a yusuf ali translation (of meanings)..am i right??

    Lets move to Quran verse 41:11 which starts with the word 'thumma' and let us see how yusuf ali translated it. Here we go,

    ثم استوى الى السماء وهي دخان فقال لها وللارض ائتيا طوعا او كرها قالتا اتينا طائعين
    Thumma istawa ila alssama-i wahiya dukhanun faqala laha walil-ardi i/tiya tawAAan aw karhan qalata atayna ta-iAAeena
    Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."

    The same word used with the meaning of "still" in Quranic verse 6:1. I already told you this previously.

    So let me confirm what I said previously. The word thumma has got different meanings (not only three meanings) and Quran is the classic example to check this out. In that sense Hamza and Adnan were correct on the meaning of word (and i already clarified to you that i have a different opinion from them on the subject).

    Now tell me brother. What are you going to do??...infact even to this comment, I thought of asking "if I show you the word 'thumma' in Quran used with meanings like moreover, what will be your response?"...

    But when understood, you are not understanding what i am trying to tell, i have given you a straight answer here.

    Hope this clears,

    Insha allah, once you respond to this comment, I will go ahead to address your other points...

    thanks and take care,

    Your brother,
    Aashiq Ahamed A

    ReplyDelete
  50. Hi,
    Your answer reminds me one saying.

    Debating religious people on the topic of religion is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps
    on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory.

    I asked you to quote the verse 23:14 in Arabic and English and EXPLAIN it to me. Please try to understand my assertion. I don't want to know the multi-meaning of a single word 'Thumma' in other Quranic verses. I am not interested in other quranic primitive science verses. Let us stick to the point, either Adnan is correct or Lord Voldemort is correct. I never said Quran is wrong but I will say again and again that the verse 23:14 which Adnan metioned for embryology is NOT SCIENCE. So please don't play chess like a pigeon, play like a champion.

    I want your next reply with Quran Chapter 23:14 because the debate is on this single verse.

    Thank You
    Lord Voldemort.
    (I will kill Harry Potter in next reboot of the franchise)

    ReplyDelete
  51. In the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most wonderful...

    Dear brother,

    May peace and blessings of the Almighty be upon you and your family....

    ///Your answer reminds me one saying.Debating religious people on the topic of religion is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps
    on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory.////

    ha ha ha. Is this applies to the religion of Atheism too brother??...lol.

    See brother, you came and made a discussion on the meaning of the word "thumma" by referring to sources (as if it does not have other meanings other than 'then'). I clearly showed you from Quran and other sources that, that word 'thumma' does mean different words. You said //These translations will be valid unless you people go and change them according to your convenience.//. I proved, we are not changing it to our convenience and actually that is what it is.

    Brother, what do you want me to do if you play around the words??.

    Let me ask directly, do you accept atleast now, the word "thumma" does have different meanings other than 'then'??. Kindly be honest.

    What's the problem in accepting the truth??

    I am very eager to address (my difference in opinion) regarding the verse 23:14. But you are not allowing me to enter.

    Let me start...

    Adnan Rashid directly contradicted with Qur'an (and ofcourse with most of the translations) on his opinions on "creation of bone and muscle" (15:13 mins on the video). Whether he put the words in other way, he needs to explain. But for a casual observer like me it seems he directly contradicted with Qur'an.

    Secondly, I was more astonished when he went on to use the word 'thumma' here. Because, the word 'thumma' does mean moreover, simultaneously and it is one of the three conjunctions used in arabic grammer (as for as i know). And if you see, thumma does mean 'then' and 'and'. Also the conjunction fa does mean 'then' and 'and'. You can see different translations uses the word fa with 'and' and 'then' interchangeably.

    The word 'thumma' in the verse 23:14 appears twice. Once initially and later in the middle before the word 'muscle' (lahm). And it is not used as a conjunction between 'bones' and 'muscles'. So, the explanation he is trying to give does not appeals. Whether he handles fa and thumma (like the translations) in the same way, he needs to explain. But for a casual observer like me he missed the point and he contradicted with Qur'an.

    I believe our brothers pinpointed this to IERA (where he is the member) (And i have done it).

    Hope this clears brother...

    May Allah show peace and happiness to you and your family....

    Thanks and take care,

    Your brother,
    Aashiq Ahamed A

    ReplyDelete
  52. Hi Intelligent,

    \\ha ha ha. Is this applies to the religion of Atheism too brother??...lol.\\

    Atheism is not a religion. The whole idea of a religion is belief in a higher power, which Atheists correctly view as absurd. It is based on intelligence and rational thought, which is thought by Christians and Muslims to be lies.
    Here are the definitions of Atheism and Religion. Draw your own conclusions. (dictionary.com)

    Atheism
    noun
    1. the doctrine or belief that there is no god.
    2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

    Religion
    noun
    1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.


    \\Brother, what do you want me to do if you play around the words??.\\

    It is you who play with words. Today the 'thumma' is Then and tomorrow it is Morover and day after tomorrow it is Simultaneously. I think your God chose wrong language to write his doctrine. lol.

    \\Let me ask directly, do you accept atleast now, the word "thumma" does have different meanings other than 'then'??. Kindly be honest.\\

    Honest answer is I am forced to accept the word 'thumma' has got different meanings and you can see my previous comments where I am comfortable with multi-meaning. I don't have any problem in accepting the truth.

    \\But for a casual observer like me it seems he directly contradicted with Qur'an.\\

    What do you mean by casual observer?
    I think you are always casual in comprehending my comments and now you are casual in comprehending Adnan video. Funny.

    \\The word 'thumma' in the verse 23:14 appears twice. Once initially and later in the middle before the word 'muscle' (lahm). And it is not used as a conjunction between 'bones' and 'muscles'. So, the explanation he is trying to give does not appeals. Whether he handles fa and thumma (like the translations) in the same way, he needs to explain. But for a casual observer like me he missed the point and he contradicted with Qur'an. \\

    This is what I am trying to feed you with spoon from the beginning. He used the wrong word 'Thumma' to explain the exact word 'Fa' for the transition of embryo.
    As I said earlier, I don't care what 'Thumma' really meant in 23:14 (let it be then,and,moreover,simultaneously) but I want you to accept Adnan is wrong and Lord Voldemort is right. No matter how you change the meaning of 'Thumma', the meaning of 'Fa' is strong enough to prove the verse 23:14 is not SCIENCE.


    \\I believe our brothers pinpointed this to IERA (where he is the member) (And i have done it). \\

    Adnan and Hamza should have thought this before challenging the real embryologist like PZ. I really admire PZ and feel sorry for Adnan and Hamza. Better luck next time my dear muslim brothers. :)

    Note:
    Still I did not get anything from your side to EXPLAIN Quran chapter 23:14. I want the Arabic and English Translation of this verse with your INTERPRTATION.
    Let us see how much you are correct when compared to Adnan. Don't play chess like a pigeon, play like a champion.

    Thank You,
    Lord Voldemort.
    (I will kill Harry Potter and Rajini Kanth in next reboot of the franchise)

    ReplyDelete
  53. Dear 'Super-Intelligent' brother,

    Assalaamu Alaikum,

    I really feel sorry for you. I told you already, meanings of words are not changed according to our wish. Abdullah yusuf ali made his translation in 1930's. In those days itself, he translated the word "thumma" as "Moreover. If you still insist on statements like // Today the 'thumma' is Then and tomorrow it is Morover and day after tomorrow it is Simultaneously//, please bring on your evidence.

    // I am forced to accept the word 'thumma' has got different meanings//

    கீழே விழுந்தாலும் மீசைல மண் ஓட்டலன்னு சொல்றீங்க...ஹா ஹா ஹா ஹா. You need not get forced and accept this brother. And even if you didn't accept, truth is not going to change. As simple as that.

    //I think you are always casual in comprehending my comments///

    Lets leave this to audience and let them decide...oops.

    ///Adnan and Hamza should have thought this before challenging the real embryologist like PZ. I really admire PZ and feel sorry for Adnan and Hamza. Better luck next time my dear muslim brothers. :)///

    A "gem" brother..keep it up. :). Adnan rashid didn't speak without proofs. He tried to convey what the very respected Anatomist Dr.Keithmoore said about embryonic developments in Quran. But he made mistakes on expressing the correct verse (Again this is what i see from the video). This is unlike your "great" PZ who said some true "gems" without any proofs at all. Here is what i noticed.

    1. PZ said "Because what you have got is an anthropomorphic, patriarchal God" - Wow...wonderful...when PZ said this we were having really nice time...keep on rocking PZ
    2. When asked about evidences for "Prophet (s) borrowed embryological opinions from Aristotle", PZ paused for a second and you have to watch his face. What a sight?. Then PZ uttered முத்துக்கள் "It is a reasonable Assumption"...What a crap. We could not control ourselves when we see a evolutionist crashed on the surface. A scientist(?) who talks about evidences and "Scientific Method" makes such statements. Br.hamza has done a great job in using this opportunity to say "ladies and gentlemen, this is faith"....lol. What a moment to cherish....

    //Still I did not get anything from your side to EXPLAIN Quran chapter 23:14. I want the Arabic and English Translation of this verse with your INTERPRTATION.
    Let us see how much you are correct when compared to Adnan. Don't play chess like a pigeon, play like a champion.//

    Brother, There are huge number of Islamic websites talking about this. Anyhow since we are talking about bones and muscles, have a look at this

    Thanks and take care....

    Your brother,
    Aashiq Ahamed A
    Kill Atheism using Islam....

    ReplyDelete
  54. And by the way dear "super-intelligent" brother,

    I failed to mention the gymnastics played by our "great" zoologist Richard Dawkins (may allah shown him the correct path..aameen)...that is a ultimate gem...

    Your brother,
    Aashiq Ahamed A
    Kill Atheism using Islam

    ReplyDelete
  55. Hi,
    I dont give any buck for criticising PZ,Dawkins,Luke Skywalker,Batcha and Gobbits.

    My point is perpetual that Adnan is wrong (ultimately you people agreed)and he made a openly dishonour statement and the embryology mentioned in 23:14 is not Science.

    BTW கீழே விழுந்தாலும் மீசைல மண் ஓட்டலன்னு சொல்றீங்க...ஹா ஹா ஹா ஹா.

    I dont't have moustache dear. The analogy suits for Adnan and Hamza for their contradicting meanings and wrong citation of the verse. lol.

    Thank You,
    Lord Voldemort.
    (I will kill Harry Potter and Rajini Kanth in next reboot of the franchise)

    ReplyDelete
  56. Lord Voldemort has left a new comment on your post "உலக நாத்திகர் மாநாட்டில் முஸ்லிம்கள் விவாதம்...":

    Hi Intelligent,

    I think you don't know how the debate proceeds. Let me show my comments sections in brief.

    1. I asked about the meaning for 'Thumma' because Adnan misguided everyone with that word.
    2. I pin pointed that Adnan is using the wrong word to describe the transitional stages of embryo. Obviously you denied the fact that Adnan is wrong.
    3. I asserted the word used in the verse 23:14 is not 'Thumma' but it is 'Fa' for the transitional stages of embryo.
    4. I accepted your multi-meaning word 'Thumma' but did not care about those meanings and at the same time I struggled hard to make you understand my point on Adnan's dishonest statement.
    5. I stressed you a lot to explain YOUR INTERPRETATION on verse 23:14 but you failed to address it everytime
    6. I concluded that the verse 23:14 is not embryology and neither perfect science.

    Aashiq comments in brief:

    1. Asked me to check Adnan video for answer.
    2. Gave some arabic poetry and verse 6.1 to explain the word 'Thumma' but missed to quote verse 23:14
    3. You struggled very hard to explain the meaning of 'Thumma' when I already decided to show the word 'Thumma' is not the point in discussion but it is 'Fa'.
    4. Finally you accepted Adnan quoted wrong verse to PZ and you people complained about it. (After several comments to spoon feed you)
    5. Now you are telling PZ is pawned by Adnan and Hamza. lol.

    Did you find the difference between us.
    I stood on the single point and I keep on stressed you to accept Adnan is wrong. Not even a single time you explained the verse 23:14 but I gave humongous translations and evidence from Quran,Lexicons and Dictionaries.
    So, let the audience decide who is PIGEON and who is CHAMPION to play the chess.

    I don't care what Keith Moore told or Zakir Naik told. All I need is the exact acceptance from the SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY to tell the embryology in quran is correct.
    Before I DEBUNK your Keith Moore's crap I want "YOUR INTERPRTATION ON THE VERSE 23:14 WITH ARABIC AND ENGLISH TRANSLATION." Why are you hesitant?

    I love to debate on Biology and now you have come to my section.lol. Let's begin.

    Hey......Are you going to kill Atheism or Lord Voldemort? :)

    ReplyDelete
  57. Dear "Super Intelligent" brother,

    ///I think you don't know how the debate proceeds.///

    Let me come to this at the last.

    A)
    ///1. I asked about the meaning for 'Thumma' because Adnan misguided everyone with that word.//
    ///1. Asked me to check Adnan video for answer.////

    Correct..no issues.

    B)
    ///2. I pin pointed that Adnan is using the wrong word to describe the transitional stages of embryo. Obviously you denied the fact that Adnan is wrong.///

    No, I didn't. I already told u, I am differing from Adnan (that is y i didn't mention this in the article). What I said is, the explanation given for thumma by Adnan is correct. i am not addressing the specific verse in question. This is a lie.

    ///2. Gave some arabic poetry and verse 6.1 to explain the word 'Thumma' but missed to quote verse 23:14///

    When you asked for the meaning, to prove my point, ie. thumma used in different meanings, i used that verse and arabic poetry.

    C)
    ///3. I asserted the word used in the verse 23:14 is not 'Thumma' but it is 'Fa' for the transitional stages of embryo.///\

    No, you made statements like "it does not contain the word "thumma" and it appears "once"", which obviously lead me to misunderstand you and i sticked with that to pinpoint your mistake. check out above...

    ///3. You struggled very hard to explain the meaning of 'Thumma' when I already decided to show the word 'Thumma' is not the point in discussion but it is 'Fa'.///

    This is a joke. You made statements like "Quran doesnot uses the word thumma in any other meaning other than 'then'" which made me to screw you up with the translation of Yusuf ali. Now you don't have any other option other than accepting that "'thumma' does mean different things". Then you said you are forced to accept. that's truly dishonest. When everything is clear in front, why you have to force yourself.

    D)
    ///4. I accepted your multi-meaning word 'Thumma' but did not care about those meanings and at the same time I struggled hard to make you understand my point on Adnan's dishonest statement.///

    You are made to accept the truth...

    ///4. Finally you accepted Adnan quoted wrong verse to PZ and you people complained about it. (After several comments to spoon feed you)///

    Once everything is clear, I made the statements. Check above, I always reminded you that you are not allowing me to explain. You are constantly made statements which constantly distracted me.

    ReplyDelete
  58. E)//5. I stressed you a lot to explain YOUR INTERPRETATION on verse 23:14 but you failed to address it everytime///

    I have given you reason for it. check above...

    ///5. Now you are telling PZ is pawned by Adnan and Hamza. lol.///

    Isn't that true??..if not tell me why...

    F)
    ///5. I stressed you a lot to explain YOUR INTERPRETATION on verse 23:14 but you failed to address it everytime///

    We didn't even finish up with the issues of thumma and "bones and muscle" matter. I clearly told this above. I told, When we finish up with these things we will move ahead. check out yourself.

    Once everything is over, ie. once you are 'forced' to accept the truth, Once I explained my point of view, I moved onto next issue. ie to explain verse 23:14. First I started with 'bones and muscles' issue. I have given you a link. Whats the problem?. That link talks about the word by word interpretation and explanation. Didn't u see that brother??. or do you want me to copy and paste it here.

    G)
    ////6. I concluded that the verse 23:14 is not embryology and neither perfect science.////
    ///All I need is the exact acceptance from the SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY to tell the embryology in quran is correct.///

    Brother, you are really kidding. Do u want Quran to be peer reviewed? Quran is not a embryology textbook dear. It is not a scientific book either, rather it is book of SIGNS. It does not make explicit statements or goes in detail. We can have scientists who are praising it individually by pinpointing certain things, but how come a scientific community?

    ReplyDelete
  59. ///I stood on the single point///

    This is want I have done. Even, infact, i told you "we will go one-by-one" for audience followup...That is the good debating method. So brother, I do understand debating method.

    ///So, let the audience decide who is PIGEON and who is CHAMPION to play the chess.///

    This is what i told you already. Let the audience decide, who is straight-forward, who follows debating techniques etc.

    ///Why are you hesitant?///

    You are really making me go bizarre. I already started it in the last comment. Please see that link. By the way, I am not a embryology expert. i depend on others in this regard. Anyhow i am willing to learn.

    ///I love to debate on Biology and now you have come to my section.lol. Let's begin.///

    Insha allah brother...

    ///Hey......Are you going to kill Atheism or Lord Voldemort? :)///

    Atheism brother..:) :)..

    And by the way, I don't see Adnan as a "dishonest" person. He made a wrong statement. You may have that opinion. No issues

    PS: I may be out of station (from now to) tomorrow, I may not have access to internet. Kindly bear with me...

    Until then take care of yourself and convey my regards to your family...

    May Allah bless you and your people with happiness...

    Your brother,
    Aashiq Ahamed A
    Kill Atheism using Islam...

    ReplyDelete
  60. Lord Voldemort has left a new comment on your post "உலக நாத்திகர் மாநாட்டில் முஸ்லிம்கள் விவாதம்...":

    Hi,
    I dont give any buck for criticising PZ,Dawkins,Luke Skywalker,Batcha and Gobbits.

    My point is perpetual that Adnan is wrong (ultimately you people agreed)and he made a openly dishonour statement and the embryology mentioned in 23:14 is not Science.

    BTW கீழே விழுந்தாலும் மீசைல மண் ஓட்டலன்னு சொல்றீங்க...ஹா ஹா ஹா ஹா.

    I dont't have moustache dear. The analogy suits for Adnan and Hamza for their contradicting meanings and wrong citation of the verse. lol.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Dear "Super Intelligent" brother,

    Assalaamu alaikum,

    I am back and I have a news for you...

    Br.Adnan Rashid addressed what we are talking about in his Facebook note. Here is the link...

    Adnan-PZ-thumma-fa

    and following is the part of what he said to me (if you don't believe me, i ready to forward that mail or make a screenshot and sent it to you),

    Adnan said...
    --------
    ......the word there is "fa", which is an atf for thumma (which means that letter fa carries the meaning of thumma all the way). I used the word thumma in my argument because fa on its own would not make sense and it is thumma which gives meaning to fa in this verse. So the word thumma is the mother word in this verse. Even if I used the word fa to make my point, I would have had to go back to the word thumma to substantiate my argument. I hope that makes sense. You may find other examples in Lane's Lexiocn vol 1 p. 388.

    ........I admit that if I explained myself during the discussion a bit more, less confusion would have arisen.....

    Wassalamu alaikum.
    Sent using BlackBerry® from Orange
    ----------

    For more elaborate view of his, pls visit the above link of his...

    Hope this is useful...

    Thanks and take care,
    Aashiq Ahamed A
    Kill Atheism Using Islam....

    ReplyDelete
  62. Hi,
    I read your link. Wow, Adnan rocks with his GULLIBILITY again. First: he explained the wrong meaning to PZ on streets; Second:he made a video on that same explanation not even considering the wrong verse and meaning.
    Now he comes out from booze and explains in Facebook. Brilliant!
    No matter how many times he tries, the word 'Fa' will never become SIMULTANEOUS. You can change 'Thumma' into then-and-moreover-simultaneously but 'Fa' stands a hinderence for you guys.
    He himself is not sure what 'Fa' is.
    \\So the formation of flesh can be simultaneous to bones or it can be after the bones, both positions can be considered to be valid. \\
    What is this? Doesn't make any sense at all.

    So, I am clear with my point.
    1. Adnan is wrong citing the wrong verse with wrong meaning
    2. The verse 23:14 is not Science.

    I think you accepted my fst point hence I will move on to prove my second point.

    Before going into Embryology I want to ask one questions.

    Who is Dr. Keith Moore.
    Because I hear this name a lot of times in the above video.

    Note:
    I want your debate on embryology in a fair manner. I dont want re-commenting the posts but I appreciate if you prove my mistakes with a secular reference or a genuine scientific reference from academics or labs.

    Thank You,
    Lord Voldemort.
    (I will kill Harry Potter and Rajini Kanth in next reboot of the franchise)

    ReplyDelete
  63. Lord Voldemort says,

    Hi Intelligent,
    Now once for all you proved my quote.
    "Debating religious people on the topic of religion is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory.”

    From the beginning I asserted on two major points.
    1. Adnan is wrong with verse and Adnan is using meaning of Thumma instead of Fa.
    2. The verse 23:14 is not embryology.

    Let us see now.

    \\ No, I didn't. I already told u, I am differing from Adnan (that is y i didn't mention this in the article). \\
    When did you tell, my dear. You admitted it in the last comment. You did mention in your article. Please check the video, it is your article with video and that is my source material.

    \\What I said is, the explanation given for thumma by Adnan is correct. i am not addressing the specific verse in question. \\
    This is your IGNORANCE and it paved the way for a big fat lie.

    \\When you asked for the meaning, to prove my point, ie. thumma used in different meanings, i used that verse and arabic poetry. \\
    Excellent! Indeed.

    \\which obviously lead me to misunderstand you and i sticked with that to pinpoint your mistake. check out above... \\
    Again IGNORANCE and lack of comprehending skills.

    ReplyDelete
  64. \\This is a joke. You made statements like "Quran doesnot uses the word thumma in any other meaning other than 'then'" which made me to screw you up with the translation of Yusuf ali.\\
    Yes. I stay by my word. I asked you to name any translation which contains other meanings (Moreover, Simultaneously or And) for THUMMA in the verse 23:14. You failed to show it in that particular verse. I don't care for other verses because they are not in the discussion.

    \\You are made to accept the truth...\\
    Yes. The truth which you claimed for multi-meaning of Thumma.

    \\Once everything is clear, I made the statements. Check above, I always reminded you that you are not allowing me to explain. You are constantly made statements which constantly distracted me. \\
    This is the real JOKE. How can I allow or not allow a person to express his ideas on a blog. "Constantly distracted me" is a very good excuse to admit your in ‘competence.

    \\I have given you reason for it. check above...\\
    What reasons? If you are not competent enough to quote a single Quranic verse and explain the interpretation, then why the hell you are blogging a site with Islamic dogmas. I can't digest your reasons buddy. If i were you, I would have terminated the blog.

    \\Isn't that true??..if not tell me why...\\
    Quoting wrong verses with misinterpretation is gullible.

    \\We didn't even finish up with the issues of thumma and "bones and muscle" matter. I clearly told this above. I told, When we finish up with these things we will move ahead. check out yourself.\\
    I am asking your interpretation for this very reason. I mean YOUR INTERPRETATION.

    \\That link talks about the word by word interpretation and explanation. Didn't u see that brother??. or do you want me to copy and paste it here.\\
    Funny. That link doesn't talk anything about embryology. Please check them again. I can copy and paste the complete embryology but I will not because I know what I am debating. Study the subject before concluding into any debate.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Do u want Quran to be peer reviewed? Quran is not a embryology textbook dear. It is not a scientific book either, rather it is book of SIGNS.
    Yes. Quran is not a science book. This is what I am asserting from the beginning. It is a religious book like Bible, Vedas and Torah. You people don't know what science is and how science works but still claim Quran is full of scientific miracles. lol. Stick to your SIGNS and please don't disturb science.

    \\We can have scientists who are praising it individually by pinpointing certain things, but how come a scientific community? \\
    Again you are correct. Science doesn't work on individuals opinion. It got Hypothesis,Theories,Inferences and Laws to validate any individuals ideas, even Einstein's ideas.

    \\You are really making me go bizarre. I already started it in the last comment. Please see that link. By the way, I am not a embryology expert. i depend on others in this regard. Anyhow i am willing to learn. \\
    I will make your life HARD and that is my speciality.lol. (Just Joking). I will insist you till the end of this debate to quote the verse 23:14 with your interpretation. I don't care what expertise you are but I am good enough to understand embryology and even debate on the subject in detail.

    \\debate on Biology\\
    My next destination is your post on Craig Venter vs. Dawkins and Bye Bye Birdie.(Hopefully after I complete my current project which is gonna start in a week). Be prepared on EVOLUTION; baby.

    \\And by the way, I don't see Adnan as a "dishonest" person. He made a wrong statement. You may have that opinion. No issues \\
    Thank you for accepting that he made a wrong statement. MISSION ACHIEVED!
    I did not say Adnan is a dishonest person. I said he made a openly dishonest statement. Lot of differences in my words and your words.

    So, I think you accepted my first assertion mentioned in the beginning of this comment. I WILL make you to accept the second one too.
    Anyhow, It’s a nice debating experience with you.
    Wishing you a joyful journey ahead!

    Thank You,
    Lord Voldemort.
    (I will kill Harry Potter and Rajini Kanth in next reboot of the franchise)

    ReplyDelete
  66. Lord Voldemort has left a new comment on your post "உலக நாத்திகர் மாநாட்டில் முஸ்லிம்கள் விவாதம்...":

    Hi,
    I read your link. Wow, Adnan rocks with his GULLIBILITY again. First: he explained the wrong meaning to PZ on streets; Second:he made a video on that same explanation not even considering the wrong verse and meaning.
    Now he comes out from booze and explains in Facebook. Brilliant!
    No matter how many times he tries, the word 'Fa' will never become SIMULTANEOUS. You can change 'Thumma' into then-and-moreover-simultaneously but 'Fa' stands a hinderence for you guys.
    He himself is not sure what 'Fa' is.
    \\So the formation of flesh can be simultaneous to bones or it can be after the bones, both positions can be considered to be valid. \\
    What is this? Doesn't make any sense at all.

    So, I am clear with my point.
    1. Adnan is wrong citing the wrong verse with wrong meaning
    2. The verse 23:14 is not Science.

    I think you accepted my fst point hence I will move on to prove my second point.

    Before going into Embryology I want to ask one questions.

    Who is Dr. Keith Moore.
    Because I hear this name a lot of times in the above video.

    Note:
    I want your debate on embryology in a fair manner. I dont want re-commenting the posts but I appreciate if you prove my mistakes with a secular reference or a genuine scientific reference from academics or labs.

    Thank You,
    Lord Voldemort.
    (I will kill Harry Potter and Rajini Kanth in next reboot of the franchise)

    ReplyDelete
  67. Dear "super-intelligent" brother,

    Assalaamu Alaikum,

    What a pity?? What a pity???. You are truly wasting my time (and followers time) by coming to the same point again and again in which you already been exposed.

    Here I got another chance to expose our "typical" atheist brother to this audience. This will be the last time i will address this issue (and leave it to audience choice)...

    ------------
    From the beginning I asserted on two major points.
    ------------

    What a big lie????...

    Brother, please go-through your initial comments...

    If thumma's meanings are not the problem for you, if you already know thumma is not used as a conjunction, then why did you waste our time in asking for the meaning of thumma when you already know thumma is not the problem here. And you even said, you are referred to some three sites for the meaning of thumma. What a typical dishonest atheist attitude?...if thumma is not the problem for you, why did you check three websites for the meaning of thumma?? Also why did you say //I am downloading the lexicon which he mentioned, it is 8 volumes and I will check in lexicon also.///

    I am totally puzzled. I already told you, be honest in your argument.

    If thumma is not the problem for you, you would have directly come to the matter in the first two comments itself like asking "thumma is not the conjunction. It is fa which is used, could you explain?". A simple statement like this would have finished the matter long ago.

    You asked me for the meaning of thumma, and it is the duty for me to explain from Quran (and Arabic resources) that thumma does mean different things which i have done. And you are "forced" to accept it. What a true dishonest statement??...A genuine person would have said "yes, I accept'. But I am afraid you didn't follow the "genuineness" guidelines because I know of a typical atheist attitude. Yet again you proved it here to the audience. May Allah guide you...aameen.

    Also see what a crap kind of a argument you are making by stating //Today the 'thumma' is Then and tomorrow it is Morover and day after tomorrow it is Simultaneously///, even after I showed you clear evidences like by citing 1930's version of Abdullah Yusuf Ali.

    Hope this summarizes everything on this subject. And I am not going to address this issue again (unless otherwise it is important). Insha'allah

    ReplyDelete
  68. Then, let us come to Adnan matter,

    You said he made a dishonest statement, and he clarifies he didn't.

    ///I think you accepted my fst point hence I will move on to prove my second point.///

    After seeing Adnan's clarification, I withdraw my comments which I made about him above. Because his point, /// I used the word thumma in my argument because fa on its own would not make sense and it is thumma which gives meaning to fa in this verse. So the word thumma is the mother word in this verse. Even if I used the word fa to make my point, I would have had to go back to the word thumma to substantiate my argument. I hope that makes sense. You may find other examples in Lane's Lexiocn vol 1 p. 388.///

    It does makes sense to me, and he made lot of references in his note on Facebook. So let me go back to his statements and analyse. Until then I withdraw my comments which i made about him which will be fair.

    Also I am eagerly waiting for research papers which are to be released by IERA on Embryology on Quran citing scientific references. That will be so cool...

    Brother, I am running my own company, and i am spending so much of time on this for listening and writing rebuttals to your "beating the same bush" arguments (anyhow, i can use this for my future reference). Also I want to do more good deeds as I am approaching last ten days of Ramadhan.

    For next one month (from tonight onwards), I am going to stay in my uncle's home which does not have internet facility (i trying to get USB internet card). So i believe i won't be available on internet on night times (may be from 5am to 7am, i am free). So i will have very less time in reading your embryology arguments and rebutting them. Anyhow, u sent in your comments and i will allow it in my office hours, no issues..

    ////Be prepared on EVOLUTION; baby.///

    Insha Allah brother...

    ///Who is Dr. Keith Moore.
    Because I hear this name a lot of times in the above video.///

    please check out this brother,

    http://officialmedical.com/medical-dictionary/dr-keith-moore-the-legend-of-anatomy-and-embryology.medic

    http://aaatoday.org/content/keith-l-moore

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_L._Moore

    thanks and regards,

    Your brother,
    Aashiq Ahamed A
    Kill Atheism Using Islam...

    ReplyDelete
  69. Lord Voldemort has left a new comment on your post "உலக நாத்திகர் மாநாட்டில் முஸ்லிம்கள் விவாதம்...":

    Hi,
    I started the argument with asking the meaning for 'Thumma'. Yes, I will not deny this because Adnan's video talked about 'Thumma'. If you see my second comment, I pointed that the 'Thumma' has nothing to do with the verse 23:14 for the embryology transition. I said he should use 'Fa' to explain the transition because that is the word used in 23:14. You denied it and accepted the mistake done by Adnan.
    I really don't understand why are you concentrating on 'Thumma' meaning which I don't even care to apply to my argument.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Dear brother,

    Assalaamu Alaikum,

    ///If you see my second comment, I pointed that the 'Thumma' has nothing to do with the verse 23:14 for the embryology transition///

    NOOOOOOOOOOOO...lie again. Pls see your second comment. Ofcourse you are talking about the verse 23:14 (and no other verse mentioned above, so you have to speak about that verse only), but you didn't mention 'fa' there. Instead you stressed on the meaning of "thumma"...Do you want me to copy and paste your comment here to prove you wrong???

    To hide a lie, how long you are going to tell more lies???...truly truly frustrating....

    Thanks and take care,

    Your brother,
    Aashiq Ahamed A
    Kill Atheism using Islam

    ReplyDelete
  71. Lord Voldemort has left a new comment on your post "உலக நாத்திகர் மாநாட்டில் முஸ்லிம்கள் விவாதம்...":

    Hi,



    I say Keith Moore fooled all Muslims.
    How?


    WHO IS Dr. KEITH L. MOORE?

    The proof about Dr.Keith Moore proving the Embryology in Quran is Scientific.

    http://dawah.de/english/islam_in_english/g_science_b_stages_of_the_creation_of_man_a.htm
    http://mustaqeem.wordpress.com/2008/02/18/keith-moore-on-embryology-in-the-quran/
    http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-a.htm
    http://www.islamforlife.co.uk/sciencefacts.htm
    http://www.answering-christianity.com/bones_then_muscles_wrapping.htm
    Arghhhhhhhhhh... The list continues in google for infinity and I think this is one of the most polluted propoganda.

    A short introduction on Dr.Keith L.Moore as per the sites mentioned above.

    "We present Professor Emeritus Keith Moore, one of the worlds prominent scientists of anatomy and embryology."
    He has headed many international associations of anatomists and in 1984 he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the JCB Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists.

    JCB Grant Award? Wow! The Association where he is a founding member awarded him the JCB Grant.

    What else is fishy about our Professor? (Source-Google and Common Sense)

    I will shown how he fools Muslims in Embryology. Now I inspect some of your claims regarding your primary witness: Dr. Keith L. Moore. (when I say your, I mean the entire Muslims who claims embroyology in Quran with Keith Moore including our Hamza and Adnan)

    He introduced his views on Quran to intellectual and scientific circles.

    I say NO, he's an author, not a scientist.
    Where is the proof? Here it comes.
    Now lets look at the real scientists. I will start with the real Islamic scientist (Alleged) and the One and Only who got the Nobel Prize in Physics.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdus_Salam

    Points to observe for real scientist

    Biography
    Youth and education
    Academic career
    Scientific career
    Government work
    Space Programme
    Nuclear Weapons Programme
    Advocacy for Science
    Personal life
    Death
    Legacy
    In Popular culture
    Documentary film (Docufilm)
    Honours
    Awards
    Awards named after Salam
    Contributions
    Institutes named after Abdus Salam

    Let's see The Current Scientist of this era Craig Venter

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Venter

    Early life
    Education
    Discovery
    Human Genome Project
    Ocean sampling
    Current work
    Media coverage
    Individual human genome sequenced
    Mycoplasma laboratorium
    Selected bibliography

    Now, our culprit Keith Moore

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_L._Moore

    Awards
    Embryology in Quran

    So Keith Moore is just a man with Awards from his institution and a paper presentation on Embryology in Quran. Maybe some books to his credit. What is his achievement in Science,Projects,Current Work,Contributions and etc.etc?
    Please compare with the REAL SCIENTISTS like Abdus Salam and Craig Venter.
    Come to the conclusion now. If not, go on reading further.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Lord Voldemort has left a new comment on your post "உலக நாத்திகர் மாநாட்டில் முஸ்லிம்கள் விவாதம்...":

    Lord Voldemort's Investigation with the help of Google.

    I am still finding scientific background of Dr.Moore but I am not able to find any, I mean ANY EVIDENCE to state him as a scientist.
    So I decided to go for the source material and searched his associations like Royal Medical Association of Canada. But believe me I did not find any association in that name and all I see is the claim claims and claims by my brainwashed Muslims.(Anybody can refute me and show those Associations existence)The source material which is common in most of the sites is Fatima Khadijah with a video. Then I went to search for The International Academy of Cytology but there it is a paid service to become a fellow member. Any dog can join this academy with 200 dollars as a fellow member. But I went through the all members of that academy and I did not find our Moore from Canada. At last I got the genuine website from Aashiq (http://aaatoday.org/content/keith-l-moore). Yes, AAA is genuine indeed but it never said he is a SCIENTIST. The webpage contains a interview from Keith Moore as a Clinical Anatomist not a Scientist.
    I did not give my hopes to find this Moore's background.
    At last found him in a music site. The encyclopedia of music in canada. Probably the other major site without any muslim influence.
    http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0005418
    So here I found that he is indeed a fellow of International Academy of Cytology. (Paid service with 150$ annual fee and 50$ Admission fee)
    Then I searched for his CV.
    Eureka!!!!!!! It is there.
    www.anatomy.org/living_history/CV_KeithMoore.pdf
    In the CV we can see his education, what he has done, where he has done, how he has been in different countries and I even found he is a fellow of International Academy of Cytology.
    He mentioned Malaysia,Japan,Toronto and etc to his work countries but I do not see SAUDI ARABIA. Its like that he is never been there.
    Then I looked at his books he authored and he did mentioned his controversial book "The Developing Human Clinically Oriented Embryology". He mentioned his all editions of that book except the 3rd edition which is claimed by Muslims as a Miracle Worker does not appear on his CV.
    Why our Moore keeping his own publication which is most acclaimed by muslims in hiding?
    Why does he keep his three years service in Saudi Arabia a secret? It seems a BIG MYSTERY to me.

    The Developing Human is the book most of the muslims claim as a reference. I downloaded the book and checked it. Believe me the book does not mention anything about Quranic Embryology Miracle but it mentions Quranic Embryology as a MYTH along with Galen,Aristotle and Hindus. The Developing Human 3rd edition does talk about Quran and tells the embryology in quran is accurate.

    So, My conclusion is based on the facts and evidences provided in this comment section.

    He is not a scientist
    Why did't he mentioned his service in Saudi Arabia in his CV
    Why doesn't he mentioned his book 3rd edition in his CV
    He is not a member of all those prestigious associations and almost all are just MADE UP and FABRICATED.
    Why the hell did Keith Moore excluded the quran miracle in all editions (except 3rd) of the book The Developing Human.

    Royal Medical Association of Canada-------------------------------Does not exists
    Council of the Union of Biological Science--------------------------No record
    International Academy of Cytology-----------------------------------Possibly a fellow
    Union of American Anatomists--------------------------------------Does not exists
    Union of North and south American Anatomists---------------------Does not exists

    ReplyDelete
  73. Lord Voldemort has left a new comment on your post "உலக நாத்திகர் மாநாட்டில் முஸ்லிம்கள் விவாதம்...":

    Now I ask EVERY MUSLIM who claims the Embryology in Quran is correct with the backing of Keith Moore.
    DID YOU EVER TRIED TO CHECK THE AUTHENTICITY OF A PERSON CALLED KEITH MOORE?
    HOW CAN ADNAN AND HAMZA MAKE SUCH BLUNDERS BY SAYING THAT KEITH MOORE ACKNOWLEDGED THE MIRACLE IN QURAN SO THE EMBRYOLOGY IN QURAN IS SCIENTIFIC?

    WHAT IS THE SOURCE MATERIAL TO DECLARE KEITH MOORE A SCIENTIST?

    HOW CAN ANYBODY ACCEPT AN ORDINARY ANATOMISTS CLAIMS ON RELIGIOUS GROUNDS?



    Note: I am not telling Quran is wrong. All I am saying is Quran is a book to practice spirituality and religion and the verse 23:14 which Adnan and Hamza referred to PZ is NOT AT ALL SCIENCE AND ACCURATE EMBRYOLOGY.




    Thank You,
    Lord Voldemort.
    (I will kill Harry Potter and Rajini Kanth in next reboot of the franchise

    ReplyDelete
  74. Lord Voldemort has left a new comment on your post "உலக நாத்திகர் மாநாட்டில் முஸ்லிம்கள் விவாதம்...":

    Hi,

    I will not accept if you tell I lied.
    My first comment is about the meaning of 'Thumma'
    and I pointed the Video timings.
    You can see the very next comment, I pointed 'Fa'
    Here is the copy paste
    "There is an important detail that you should really pay attention to. The verse Adnan referred is 23:14 and it talks about the formation of bones, and flesh/muscle does not use the word 'thumma'. The word used is 'fa'. I wonder what Adnan thinking when he made a such a openly dishonour statement. "

    ReplyDelete
  75. Dear brother,

    assalaamu alaikum,

    -----
    I will not accept if you tell I lied.
    My first comment is about the meaning of 'Thumma'
    and I pointed the Video timings.
    You can see the very next comment, I pointed 'Fa'
    -----

    here is your first comment,

    ------------
    Lord Voldemort said...
    What is meant by "Thumma". I see Adnan Rashid describing that word to PZ. Can you describe it for me.
    ------------

    your second comment,

    -----
    Lord Voldemort has left a new comment on your post "உலக நாத்திகர் மாநாட்டில் முஸ்லிம்கள் விவாதம்...":

    Hi,
    You are correct. My comments did not reflect on blog so I used Lord Voldemort. But apparently both the comments appeared on refresing the page. In my region,the IP is dynamic for ADSL.

    I watched both the videos and they are revelation to me. (LOL)

    10.47 -------------chewed flesh-------- I am not talking about that. (Why is he skipping the point)

    11.30 -------------'thumma' in arabic is STRAIGHT AFTER by Hamza

    19.58 -------------'thumma' is SIMULTANEOUSLY and linguistically quran is correct by Adnan (I liked PZ expression to this)

    22.58 -------------what is it for--- blah blah by Hamza (Not even one valid point)

    In second video,
    Adnan says 'thumma' is things happening simultaneously or immediately.

    I checked 3 websites to translate 'thumma' in english and nowhere, i mean nowhere it says SIMULTANEOUSLY or IMMEDIATELY. Can you help me with any translation that I missed. I am downloading the lexicon which he mentioned, it is 8 volumes and I will check in lexicon also.

    My question is simple. Do you really require to twist the words and translations to say a simple sentence? Why contradict (Hamza and Adnan) with a single word 'Thumma'?.

    Thanks.
    -----------------------

    You initially stressed on thumma and later moved on to 'fa' from third comment....

    thanks and take care,

    your brother,
    aashiq ahamed a
    Kill athiesm using Islam

    ReplyDelete
  76. Hi,
    What difference it made in third comment. The gist of my argument is to point 'Thumma' is not the word in concern. I tried to shape the debate by starting 'Thumma' and pin point 'Fa'. It is me who told Adnan is wrong by citing 'Fa'. I need credits (lol) but you are critisising me a liar.
    Enough. Let it be. Let the audience decide.
    My goal is to prove Adnan made a openly dishonest statement with 'Thumma'. Thats it.
    Now we shall move to the reality of Embryology.

    Thank You,
    Lord Voldemort.
    (I will kill Harry Potter and Rajini Kanth in next reboot of the franchise)

    ReplyDelete
  77. Hi,

    To begin with Embryology, I want to start with a simple question from my research in Quranic Creation of MAN.
    In the quran there are several different methods for creating humans.
    11:16 produced you from the earth
    77:20 Did we not create you from a worthless fluid?
    15:26,28,33,17:16,32:7 created man from sounding clay,from mud moulded
    23:12 we have created man from an extract of clay (or wet earth)
    38:71 I am about to create man from clay/mire
    19:9, 19:67 we created him out of nothing
    52:35 were they created of nothing?
    25:54, 21:30,24:45 Allah has created every living thing from water
    40:67 He who created you from dust
    3:59, 22:5, 30:20, 35:11 Allah has created you from dust, then from a drop of semen
    23:14 We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot
    16:4, 53:46, 75:37....sperm or seed or fluid or drop
    30:19, 39:6 He created you from a single person (dead?)
    Arghhhhhhhhhh.......We have lot to choose from.

    Why go round about way in diferent suras when more precise and accurate descriptions would have made life easier for the interpreters like Aashiq of this book and ultimately more fitting god. Even people 1400 years ago would have understood this.

    Hmmmmm.....I am not coming to the function of an angel in embryology as said in hadiths.
    Angel records gender.lol.

    Which verse and which point you would like to debate with me. I am ready to take any verse to prove it as a primitive science and not accurate Embryology.

    I personally recommend Quran Chapter 23:14 because this is the verse Adnan and Hamza blabbered a lot with PZ. So keeping the debate in convolution to this verse, I think it is fair to concentrate on it as Embryology or Primitive Science.

    Thank You,
    Lord Voldemort.
    (I will kill Harry Potter and Rajini Kanth in next reboot of the franchise)

    ReplyDelete
  78. Assalaamu Alaikum brother Voldemort,

    ///What difference it made in third comment.///

    A big one. You are asking about meaning of word thumma in first two comments, in the third comment you over turned and said "thumma" is not the problem...A big difference. What a lie again!!!

    /// The gist of my argument is to point 'Thumma' is not the word in concern.///

    You could have told it directly in the first comment. You made lot of efforts to understand the meaning of "thumma" (by going through 3 websites, referring to dictonary etc) which is not at all your focus point. After all to tell that simply you need not refer to lot of materials. lol...Another lie..again exposed.

    //I will not accept if you tell I lied.//

    same thing applies to Adnan. He will not accept if you tell he made a dishonest statement...

    //Let it be. Let the audience decide.///

    இதைத்தான் நான் அப்போதிலிருந்து சொல்லிக்கொண்டிருக்கின்ரேன்..

    Thanks and take care,

    Your brother,
    Aashiq Ahamed A
    kill atheism using Islam...

    ReplyDelete
  79. Assalaamu Alaikum,

    To all those who are reading so-far and for the new comers who just joined in, here is the summary of what’s happening here.

    1. Lord Voldemort entered the discussion asking for the meaning of thumma – it was shown clearly from the Qur’an and other resources that the word ‘thumma’ does have different meanings – he was ‘forced’ accept the truth – later he made very less-genuine, dishonest statement by saying “today the meaning will be then, tomorrow it will moreover, day after tomorrow it will be simultaneous” – even this was tackled very successfully and a clear rebuttal was given by showing examples from 1930’s version of Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation (of meanings).

    2. From third comment onwards Lord voldemort entered into the explanation of ‘fa’ – claimed Br.Adnan made dishonest statement – I said Br.Adnan made a mistake – Also clarified to him that Br.Adnan was trying to convey what the respected Anatomist Dr.keithmoore said on the subject and he made the mistake while conveying the message – Adnan Rashid responds to the claim of voldemort – I withdrew my comments about adnan by saying his clarification does make sense – but voldemort stays on in his position that “adnan made a dishonest statement”.

    3. On the side note, I claimed PZ was dishonest and made a crap of a statement by saying “Prophet (s) copied the information from Aristotle” and also for saying “Muslims worship Anthromorphic God”– Also I blamed Richard dawkins for playing gymnastics – My claim on PZ and dawkins stays on..

    4. Then discussion turned to embryology – I gave a link – voldemort rejects it by saying “it is not embryology”.

    5. Voldemort questions the credibility of Dr. Moore.

    For more details please go-through the above discussion in detail.

    Thanks and take care,

    Your brother,
    Aashiq Ahamed A
    kill atheism using Islam..

    ReplyDelete
  80. Dear Lord Voldemort

    Assalamu alaikkum brother

    What kind of a methodology of research are you pursuing? If you search for someone and if you dint find them in wikipedia, will you put him in trash?
    Is wikipedia the new Quran for the religion of atheism? What if I edit the pages of PZ Myers? Will you say that “ yes! He too is an idiot!!” . Breathe please.

    As you know well, in countries like US and Canada an academic faculty must continually pursue his research and development to keep him abreast of the current developments else he will be outdated and wont be respected. So, even if you say Keith Moore is a professor like PZ, the CV PDF you gave lists number of articles/publications he has done in his vast career right from 1951(PZ was not even born then and Craig Venter was a toddler).

    Some background: It was a group of students from king Abdul aziz university in Jeddah who started a project to touch base with numerous scientists of various fields with the verses of SCIENCE from quran and asked their opinion. In the field of embryology and anatomy they spoke to keith moore, TVN persaud , marshall e Johnson etc..

    TVN persaud
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wGN3Zrtuv0

    marshall e Johnson

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTGciEVMJxU

    These scientists also spoke in 7th and 8th Saudi medical conferences with their research and its relevance to Quran and sunnah. I don’t think any of them ever worked in Saudi Arabia. Correct me if I am wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  81. See, two decades back these embryologist’s stamps on quran verses on its accuracy was a great wow thing and that’s why you hear these people’s name everywhere. Now , even kids like you and me talk about it and so is its relevance widely known.

    Whether you say Keith Moore as scientist or not his credentials are rock solid. He was part of the reviewing committee for the 40th edition of “gray’s anatomy” book. Hope you know the significance of this book in medicine. University of Toronto, which is No1 in medicine in Canada will not keep a MORON as Dean for more than two decades. And AAA is not a joker club where he was a member and AACA is neither a clown club where he was a past president.
    http://www.clinical-anatomy.org/pastpresidents.html

    He DID mention Saudi Arabia in his career. Go to this page http://aaatoday.org/content/keith-l-moore. And by all means may CTRL+F work for you in finding Saudi there.
    (In my CV I dint mention some of my experience as it has nothing to do with the career path I am in now. Does that mean I am deceiving you. Its all personal choice what someone puts in his CV)

    If I go with your so called protagonist approach of ripping apart someone with the prophecies of Wikipedia, then PZ Myers page does not give the list of doctoral students who pursued under him neither the page say who was his guide unlike Dr.salam. So should I say abdussalaam was taller than Myers. No!! I won’t be as naïve as you here.
    Furthermore, go to the pages of Nicholas kemmer and paul mathhews who are the guides of abdussalaam. Their wiki pages are very very small as compared to dr.salam. The length of the wiki page or its contents does NOT state a person’s credentials to the fullest.

    We do NOT need a Keith Moore to teach us Islam or embryology. We quote him as he publicly acknowledged the scientific portions of Quran. This is just a selling point for us among a host of other things we have in our kitty. Even if you say and prove that Keith Moore is a ghost wandered in Canadian snow world, Quranic embryology is unaffected. Beyond doubt, quran talks about stages of embryology which was incomprehensible for people even 5 or 6 centuries ago.

    Remember, when hamza quoted keith moore , PZ myers said BULLSHIT for the work and not for moore as he know moore very well. The utterance of bullshit is the result of atheistic arrogance and the same arrogance made prophet of atheism Richard dawkins to utter F*** word against brother hamza. When the religion of atheism is attacked, even their prophets loose cool.
    May peace prevail. Peace be on to you and to your family.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Lord Voldemort has left a new comment on your post "உலக நாத்திகர் மாநாட்டில் முஸ்லிம்கள் விவாதம்...":

    Hi,

    Excellent!
    Now you are very clear.
    But I will not buy the Adnans blank excuses. It is not a fair explanation buddy. If you are challenging PZ, you should be well informed on the topics you discuss. I leave the judgement to audience. Overall debate can be judged with the reality of emryology.
    Anyhow, I am eager to accept the challenge to prove verse 23:14 is not embryology.
    I also insist my counterparts to bring up with a credible source and not from biased sources. Sameway I also promise to use the credible sources and not biased anti-islamic sources. I will use only scientific journals and scientific materials and my knowledge on science. I expect the same temperment from all of my muslim brothers.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Lord Voldemort has left a new comment on your post "உலக நாத்திகர் மாநாட்டில் முஸ்லிம்கள் விவாதம்...":

    Hi Peer Mohamed,

    I don't want to re-comment and waste time on your recommendations on Keith Moore.
    My Question is simple:
    He is not a scientist-----------------------------------------------Any Proof by Peer Mohamed
    Why did't he mentioned his service in Saudi Arabia in his CV-----I accept AAA did mention S.A.
    Why doesn't he mentioned his book 3rd edition in his CV--------------Need Answer from Peer Mohamed
    He is not a member of all those prestigious associations and almost all are just MADE UP and FABRICATED.------Why a man in science needs such lies. After all he got his own prestigious award.lol.
    Why the hell did Keith Moore excluded the quran miracle in all editions (except 3rd) of the book The Developing Human.---------Need Answer from Peer Mohamed
    Is Keith Moore converted to Islam-----------------------------Need Answer but not a major concern to the argument.

    So, Why should I take his recommendations from such a in-consistent man in science. After all he is just a Anatomist and a Author.
    Can you prove the verse 23:14 is Embryology using modern scientific data?


    Thank You,
    Lord Voldemort.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Dear brother Lord Voldemort,

    Assalaamu Alaikum,

    Alhamdhulillah (all praise to Allah)….I got some time to refute few points here…

    //excellent/// - thanks for the compliments brother…

    /// JCB Grant Award? Wow! The Association where he is a founding member awarded him the JCB Grant.///

    Is this a correct approach brother?? Criticising somebody like indian politicians?? Because he is a founding member, does that qualify him to get an award?? If somebody is a founding member, can the awarding committee neglect rules and give the award to him? Are you showing a wrong example?? Are we going to make mockery of this?

    By the way what is the meaning of founding member??...wikipedia says Dr.keithmoore is the founding member of AACA (ofcourse keithmoore also says this in AAA website). But what about CAA, which gave him the JCB award??...ofcourse he was one of the oldest member of the association, does that make him a founding member?? Pls correct me if I am wrong (I may misunderstood the meaning of words). Keithmoore says he is a member of CAA (not founding member) since 1954 (here is a problem, CAA website says it was started in 1956, may be either of them mis-typed the information).

    ReplyDelete
  85. Is Dr.Keith Moore a Scientist???

    A very interesting question indeed. To answer this question, let me look at this link again,
    http://aaatoday.org/content/keith-l-moore.

    In the above link, I find Dr.Moore saying he got “J.C.B Grant Award”.

    When I googled this, I found some really interesting information. This particular award was given by an association called “Canadian Association of Anatomists” whose name was later changed to “Canadian Association for Anatomy, Neurobiology, and Cell Biology (CAANCB)” to accommodate people with diverse fields.

    Now, when I check out what are all the awards presented by CAANCB, I found out that the “J.C.B Grant Award” was right there at the top.

    What kind of award is “jcb grant award”?? To whom it was given??

    Here is what CAANCB says about the award,

    ======
    J.C.B. Grant Award

    Presented to an outstanding senior scientist, who is a full professor, in recognition of special merit and achievement in research and teaching in the field of anatomy, neurobiology or cell biology. The recipient should have contributed significantly to science in Canada, and be recognized internationally as a leading scientist. Nominations for this award shall be allowed to stand for 3 years in a row. This award is sponsored by the Lippincott, Williams and Wilkins Publishing Company, Baltimore, Maryland.
    =======

    You can see the above definition in http://caancb.blogspot.com/2006/02/awards-of-association.html

    This really raised my eyebrows. Because, to get this award, one should be a
    1. Outstanding senior scientist who is a full professor
    2. should have contributed significantly to science in Canada
    3. and be recognized internationally as a leading scientist.

    Quite interesting indeed…

    Now, when I checked out the list of people who got this award, I find Dr.Moore was awarded with this honour for the year 1984 (as he claims in the AAA website).

    You can find this in http://caancb.blogspot.com/2006/02/winners-of-association.html

    This raises some serious questions.

    1. If Dr.Moore is just a professor and not a scientist, why should he get an award which was presented to senior scientist??
    2. If Dr.Moore is just a professor and not a scientist, why should he get an award which was presented to those who have contributed significantly to science in Canada??
    3. If Dr.Moore is just a professor and not a scientist, why should he get an award which was presented to those who are recognized internationally as a leading scientist??

    Did CAANCB miscalculated and gave this award to Dr.Moore?

    Infact, AAA site does speak about the contributions of Dr.Moore to the field. Very impressive contribution record indeed.

    From the points I presented above, I am more than convinced that Dr.Moore is not just a well accomplished professor but also a scientist. Anyhow, you can correct me on this if I am wrong…

    Please address my points…

    Thanks and take care,

    Your brother,
    Aashiq Ahamed A
    Kill atheism using Islam.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Hi,

    Do you want me to accept Keith Moore as a scientist?
    C'mon dear. Think reasonably. If you are referring to a person as an example, he must be an example. JCB Grant award is from HIS own organization. The award is given to scientists and professors but it doesnt mean that the founder should not be given this award. CAANCB-Wow what an organization. It doesnt even have a website on its name and the founder is a surprise for me:A turkish doctor Dr. Erdogan Sendemir. CAANCB is JUST a member associate in CFBS but CFBS never acknowledged JCB Grant award.
    I will accept his works provided he should maintain his stance in every period. If he is writing a book on support of Quran, he should maintain to defend the point for entirety because Quran is based on faith and the fath is perpetual for entirety.
    I appreciate your effort Aashiq but it is all in vain. Keith Moore is just a anatomist author and I feel he is not a selling point;rather he makes your valid points weak.

    I or any reasonable person will not accept the claims from such a in-consistent and low profile anatomist. Try to bring someother genuine scientist in your defence. As Adnan said in his facebook link you provided-
    \\Dr Keith Moore's support is no longer accepted by the critics of the argument and it is for this reason we will use some more recent/modern authoritative works on embryology to support our research\\
    Adnan is right Aashiq, Keith Moore is no longer accepted.

    My challenge is still there.
    Quran chapter 23:14 is not Embryology. Anybody can prove me wrong with the exact Arabic verse and English translation with personal interpretation and explanation from any genuine scientific data.

    Thank You,
    Lord Voldemort.

    ReplyDelete
  87. Dear Brother Lord Voldemort,

    Assalaamu Alaikum,

    Your last comment didn't even satisfy me 1%. Anyhow that is my opinion, insha allah i will come to this in future.

    Now lets move to your another claim,

    ///He is not a member of all those prestigious associations and almost all are just MADE UP and FABRICATED.///
    ///Royal Medical Association of Canada-------------------------------Does not exists
    Council of the Union of Biological Science--------------------------No record
    International Academy of Cytology-----------------------------------Possibly a fellow
    Union of American Anatomists--------------------------------------Does not exists
    Union of North and south American Anatomists---------------------Does not exists////

    Fine, i went through his CV which you gave me http://www.anatomy.org/living_history/CV_KeithMoore.pdf

    And also to his self-proclaimed CV at http://aaatoday.org/content/keith-l-moore

    Dr.Moore did not claim he is a part of these organisations,

    1. Royal Medical Association of Canada
    2. Council of the Union of Biological Science
    3. Union of American Anatomists
    4. Union of North and south American Anatomists

    and ofcourse he claims he is a fellow at International Academy of Cytology in both the references.That is true and even you accepted this.

    Now, I may be terribly wrong, because i just made a ctrl+f search in both the CVs. But i made the search with different words/different approach.

    Kindly go through the above CVs and please tell me if i am wrong. If you also didn't find the information you have given me, then please tell me where did you get this information from....Or please tell me where did Dr.Moore claim he is a member of those four associations...

    Thank you,

    Your brother,
    Aashiq Ahamed A
    Kill Atheism using Islam.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Lord Voldemort has left a new comment on your post "உலக நாத்திகர் மாநாட்டில் முஸ்லிம்கள் விவாதம்...":

    Hi,

    I am not concerned wheather you are 1% satisfied ot 100 % satisfied. My point is rigid to tell he is not a SCIENTIST. If you check my comments I did mention him as a fellow of the International Academy of Cytology. I also mentioned this-
    \\Then I went to search for The International Academy of Cytology but there it is a paid service to become a fellow member. Any dog can join this academy with 200 dollars as a fellow member. \\

    Coming to your point on evidence for those associations. I gave you URLs in my above comment section on Who is Dr.Keith L. Moore.
    Please watch the video also.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sg5aVgwN_2E&feature=related

    Still I don't understand why you are interested in proving the authenticity of Moore. He is next to no one. Can't you prove the embryology in 23:14 without Moore and with accurate scientific data? lol.

    Don't waste time on Keith Moore and try to concentrate on my challenge to prove embryology.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Dear Brother Lord Voldemort,

    Assalaamu Alaikum,

    1. ///I am not concerned wheather you are 1% satisfied ot 100 % satisfied.///

    that's absolutely correct. Similarly i do not care about you when you say he is not a scientist. Evidences are strong enough for me to accept him as a scientist. Not just a scientist but a outstanding scientist. Ofcourse my point is rigid to tell he is a SCIENTIST.

    2. /// you check my comments I did mention him as a fellow of the International Academy of Cytology. I also mentioned this-///

    Yes. i mentioned this in my previous comment by saying //even you accepted this.//

    ///Coming to your point on evidence for those associations. I gave you URLs in my above comment section on Who is Dr.Keith L. Moore.///

    This is really frustrating. I am asking for "where did Dr.moore claim he is a member of those associations?" and you are showing some islamic sites (out of five sites you have given, only two have that information, also four associations they are citing) who claims dr.moore was a member.

    //Please watch the video also.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sg5aVgwN_2E&feature=related//

    what is this brother??...somebody speaks in the background. What are you trying to prove from this?. I am asking for "where did Dr.Moore himself stated he is the part of those organisations?"....My question is very simple. I hesitate to believe "somebody speaks in the background kinda" videos (because there is lot of issues on that). I want the answer from the concerned person. Did you see the logic behind my point??

    His resumes are readily available. Please go, check and tell me.

    Don't you really understand what i am asking??...you explicitly stated Dr.moore was lying. I am asking for the evidences from Dr.Moore's side. As simple as that. In which CV did Dr.Moore say that he is the member of those organisations??...

    Please do not waste my time brother..

    3. //Still I don't understand why you are interested in proving the authenticity of Moore.//

    Just because Dr.Moore praised Quran, you people are going and trying to find some information to dis-credit a member of AAA who spend his entire life in research and teaching. Certainly, a man of his stature who contributed extensively to science doesn't deserve this.

    4. And more than that you are the one who stated this ///Before going into Embryology I want to ask one questions.Who is Dr. Keith Moore.///

    So let us clarify this first...

    Thanks and take care,

    Your brother,
    Aashiq Ahamed A
    Kill Atheism Using Islam...

    ReplyDelete
  90. Lord Voldemort has left a new comment on your post "உலக நாத்திகர் மாநாட்டில் முஸ்லிம்கள் விவாதம்...":

    Hi,

    I feel pity for your situation.
    \\Similarly i do not care about you when you say he is not a scientist. Evidences are strong enough for me to accept him as a scientist. Not just a scientist but a outstanding scientist. Ofcourse my point is rigid to tell he is a SCIENTIST. \\

    First let me show what a SCIENTIST is.
    (i) A scientist the one who experiments things.
    (ii)A scientist in a broad sense is one engaging in a systematic activity to acquire knowledge. In a more restricted sense, a scientist is an individual who uses the scientific method.
    (iii)A scientist is one who invents things that can help in the part of science and their invention is added to the history of science.

    All these parameters can be applied to any scientists. Eg: Abdus Salam. Craig Venter, Stephen Hawkings and etc. etc.
    They have their projects and researches. Now you tell me how Keith Moore fits into this category.
    There is no justification to the term 'SCIENTIST' if you tell Keith Moore a scientist. It is a shame for the real scientists who dedicated their life for science.

    \\Yes. i mentioned this in my previous comment by saying\\
    What is this? I said a Dog also can become a member in this academy in my very first comment about Moore. Why are you wasting time to discuss this again and again.

    ReplyDelete
  91. \\This is really frustrating. I am asking for "where did Dr.moore claim he is a member of those associations?" \\
    This is really frustrating for me. I gave you the hell lot of information and a video but you act like a child to simply deny the fact.
    You should ask this question to the bluffmasters who does islamic propoganda through all these sites. Do you dare to ask them? Naaaaah.
    The major Dawah site is http://www.answering-christianity.com.
    You personally gave me this site to show the embryology and I pity you didn't check the authenticity of Moore in that same site.
    http://www.answering-christianity.com/it-is-truth/CreationOfMan.html
    http://dawah.de/english/islam_in_english/g_science_b_stages_of_the_creation_of_man_a.htm
    http://www.islamforlife.co.uk/sciencefacts.htm
    http://islampalace.150m.com/stgfman.htm
    http://www.quranicstudies.com/articles/medical-miracles/stages-of-the-creation-of-man-a/print.html
    http://wn.com/Embryology_Prof_Keith_L_Moore_part_1_explaining_about_the_quran_Embryology
    Do you have his book 'The Developing Human Clinically Oriented Embryology".?
    Just download a copy and search 'Quran'. Maybe you will understand then. He mentioned embryology in quran is a myth along greeks and hindus.

    \\Just because Dr.Moore praised Quran, you people are going and trying to find some information to dis-credit a member of AAA who spend his entire life in research and teaching. Certainly, a man of his stature who contributed extensively to science doesn't deserve this. \\
    With all the given evidences, Moore is nothing other than a Author and a Anatomist.
    Just give me one hard evidence to state Keith Moore a scientist. I want evidence from a internationally acclaimed institute and not from his own organization. I think it is a fair demand.

    My dear Aashiq, I asked you to quote 23:14 with english translation and interpret it. I think I am asking this from the early stage of the debate. Answer me honestly. did you?
    Why?
    I challenged you to prove 23:14 is embryology but for the past two days you are interested in proving a in-consistent Moore. What is the matter? Are you in'competent? Can't you prove Quran 23:14 without Keith Moore?
    Who cares if Moore accepted quran or not. Just prove the claim through the modern scientific data. If the verse is true, what is the hinderence. Just spit out.
    I am not wasting time. It is you my dear wasting time with your in'competence to prove the verse.
    I want your next reply with Quran Chapter 23:14 with english translation and interpretation to explain the claim of it's embryology. If not, please accept you are not capable to do so.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Dear Brother,

    Assalaamu Alaikum,

    Kindly cool down….

    1. I already told you, CAA gave Dr.Moore the honorary JCB Grant award. This is sufficient for me to accept him as a Scientist. I do not bother about your claims. By the way, I asked you to show me the proof that he founded CAA. Till now you didn’t provide any proofs. But let me throw this piece of information.

    In his CV at anatomy.org, Dr.Moore claims he is a founding member of AACA. But in the same CV, he claims he is a charter member of CAA. Interesting….Now, when I asked wikipedia about this, it says “A charter member of an organization is an original member; that is, one who became a member when the organization received its charter.”. fine. What is charter?...wiki says “A charter is the grant of authority or rights”… So do you understand the meaning of charter member?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter

    As far as the definition of “scientist”, that is what I am asking you to do. I mean, I am constantly asking you to see AAA site where Moore claims the following…

    ----
    I have published 60 scientific papers (including abstracts) based on my research and teaching methods.
    ---

    Also above this claim I find the following information,

    ----
    After receiving my doctorate, I was awarded a two year Postdoctoral Fellowship from the National Cancer Institute of Canada to continue research on the morphology of cell nuclei, with special reference to sex chromatin in human malignant tumors. Later I cultured human chromosomes, with special reference to sex chromosomal abnormalities (e.g., in persons with the Down syndrome, Klinefelter syndrome, Turner syndrome and mental deficiencies). I was the first one to observe that most males with the Klinefelter syndrome have abnormal sex chromosome complements that is XXY instead of the normal XY. Subsequently, I observed 5 males with sex chromatin in their nuclei in the 1911 infants from whom I obtained buccal smears (0.26 %).
    ----

    Doesn’t what he claims on his CV, not fitting to the definition of the Scientist?? (eg. A scientist in a broad sense is one engaging in a systematic activity to acquire knowledge)...For more details, Please go through his CV.

    You are saying anybody can pay some dollars and get the fellowship of International Academy of Cytology. But Dr.Moore tells this in another way (may be in those days, the rules of IAC are different)….

    ---
    I continued my study of the sex chromatin in humans and developed the vaginal smear sex chromatin test, which is used routinely by gynaecologists in cases of primary amenorrhoea and other sex disorders in females. Because of my studies using this test, I was elected Fellow of the International Academy of Cytology and a Member of the Board of Consultants in the International Academy of Gynaecological Cytology.
    -----

    You are saying “any dog” can get. But believe me, it is not that easy…To get elected as a fellow/member, not only paying is important, but also there are some mandatory requirements. E.g. If you are applying for Medical Membership (MIAC), the mandatory requirements are a medical degree and a completed education in a medical specialty (e.g. pathology, gynecology, internal medicine ect) in the country of residence in addition to special expertise in cytology.
    So I believe, if money is there you cannot enter into IAC. So, a dog cannot enter IAC easily. He has to fulfil their requirements. Correct me if I am wrong…Wanna go through, see the below page and click application forms of each membership/fellowship

    http://www.cytology-iac.org/how-to-join

    ReplyDelete
  93. 2. You are the one who claimed Dr.moore lied about those organisations. My question is open, pls bring on a evidence which shows Dr.Moore himself stated he was the part of those organisations. I could not even think about the logic behind bringing Islamic sites and saying ‘they got the information”. So if they got the wrong information, will you blindly accept?

    Then, if you go-through those Islamic sites, the order/words which states the association names are mostly equal. This means they copied it from one-another and it spread. I am going to write to those sites indicating their mistake. Thanks for telling.

    By the way, if I give you some links, that does not mean I agree with all the other articles in that site. Thinking in that way is not at all healthy. Also, Thinking that I have gone-through all the articles in that website is also not a healthy sign.

    I have given you one link, and these info was not there. Check out.

    3. You are the one who said “before going to embryology, let me ask question on Keithmoore”. You have thrown some allegations against him for which you didn’t bring on the evidence.

    As I already told you, my debating technique is, I will stick to one point. I already clarified this above. Whatever you think/scold about me, I am not going to bother. It is as simple as that.

    The way I debated definitely brought success to my side (my belief), so I stick with this debating technique of mine.

    1. you claimed Dr.moore was not the scientist. And I proved from the award given to Moore, he is a scientist.
    2. You alleged Dr.Moore of faking things. I am still waiting for your proof which shows “dr.moore claimed those membership”.

    Once we finish up with this, we will move ahead..

    Thanks and regards,

    Your brother,
    Aashiq Ahamed A
    Kill atheism using Islam

    ReplyDelete
  94. Lord Voldemort has left a new comment on your post "உலக நாத்திகர் மாநாட்டில் முஸ்லிம்கள் விவாதம்...":

    Hi,
    Now you are playing exactly like a PIGEON.:)

    \\ I already told you, CAA gave Dr.Moore the honorary JCB Grant award. This is sufficient for me to accept him as a Scientist. I do not bother about your claims. By the way, I asked you to show me the proof that he founded CAA. Till now you didn’t provide any proofs\\

    If the JCB Grant award is sufficient for YOU to accept him as a scientist, who cares. It is your personal choice. Even Adnan never claimed Moore as a scientist(check his transcription) because he knew what a scientist really mean and that is the reason he admitted Moore is not considered nowadays for a debate.
    When did you asked me to give the proof that he founded CAA. Can you copy paste it.
    I said he is the founder of American Association of Clinical Anatomists AACA which offered him JCB Grant award.
    CAA is a B movie type organization from Turkey and they don't even have a website for their reputation. They are running on blogspot my dear.
    How can you expect a sceptic like me to accept CAA as reputable association when compared to the real associations like AAA.
    Let Moore be a charter member or goose golden egg, CAA itself is not a reputable association.
    Can you compare CAA with real organizations like AAA or even AACA of Moore's and give me the results?
    BTW, AAA never acknowledged him as a SCIENTIST.
    Let me clarify Moore.
    He is a Professor
    He is a Anatomists
    He is a Author
    He is a Fellow member of some paid organization
    He is a prominent figure in Islamic web sites
    HE is awarded JCB Grant award

    That is all. Whatever his CV says, everything fits into this. He is not part of any Scientists Academy. I need evidence from real academies if you say so.

    \\So if they got the wrong information, will you blindly accept? \\

    Ha ha ha ha. They are always giving wrong information like your blog. I will never ever accept anything blindly.
    It is you who gave me a website to refer embryology and I gave the same website as a proof for the blunders concerning Moore's associations.
    Now it is you who accepted blindly and not me.

    \\This means they copied it from one-another and it spread. I am going to write to those sites indicating their mistake. Thanks for telling. \\

    It is not only those bluffmaster websites. Even Aashiq's blog is doing the same copy paste and tamil translation business.
    Please please write to them and let me know the results.lol.

    \\By the way, if I give you some links, that does not mean I agree with all the other articles in that site. Thinking in that way is not at all healthy. Also, Thinking that I have gone-through all the articles in that website is also not a healthy sign.\\

    I don't understand what are you trying to convey.

    \\you claimed Dr.moore was not the scientist. And I proved from the award given to Moore, he is a scientist.
    You alleged Dr.Moore of faking things. I am still waiting for your proof which shows “dr.moore claimed those membership”. \\

    You never proved Moore is a scientist. You just gave me your personal choice to accept Moore as a scientist.
    I am not alleging, I am asserting Moore is faking things. I gave you proofs, videos and even book references.

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  95. Lord Voldemort has left a new comment on your post "உலக நாத்திகர் மாநாட்டில் முஸ்லிம்கள் விவாதம்...":

    Dear Aashiq, I want to ask you some question and I need honest answers.

    1. Do you require Keith Moore to prove Embryology in Quran? Why can't you use your Quran and Hadiths as a proof to explain Embryology.
    2. Can you compare Keith Moore with any real scientist of your choice and give me the conclusion. Scientist like Dr.Abdus Salam or Stephen Hawkings.
    3. Is it really required for a genuine scientist to join a paid association.puff.
    4. Did you read his book. I mean his 3rd edition and the latest 8th edition.
    5. Why did he mention Quran as a myth in his 6th,7th and 8th edition of his book.
    6. Can you show me any scientist or professor changing topics in their repective book editions like Keith Moore.
    7. Have you ever questioned Quran and Hadiths with same consistency to check the facts.
    8. Did you ever ever and ever quoted the verse 23:14 with translation and explained it to me in this blog.

    The best proof I have against Keith Moore from his own work for his in-consistency is 'The Developing Human Clinically Oriented Embryology'.
    This is the book Zakir Naik in this video referring as a genuine book to study anatomy in MBBS.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLEuuLj0GCI
    This is the book every muslim apologetics claim as a proof for embryology in quran is accurate.
    This is the book translated into all islamic regional languages.
    But my question is very simple. Did you guys ever gone through that book.
    It is a biased 3rd edition published in saudi arabia claims quranic embryology is accurate and divine.
    All editions following that DID mentioned Quran as a MYTH with other greeks,hindus and etc.
    Here is the transcript from that book.
    \\Embryology in the Middle Ages
    page 9
    Growth of science was slow during the medieval period, and few high points of embryologic investigation undertaken during this time are known to us. It is cited in the Quran (seventh century ad), the Holy Book of the Muslims, that human beings are produced from a mixture of secretions from the male and female. Several references are made to the creation of a human being from a nutfa (small drop). It also states that the resulting organism settles in the womb like a seed, 6 days after its beginning. Reference is also made to the leechlike appearance of the early embryo. Later the embryo is said to resemble a "chewed substance." \\
    WHY?

    How can you bring this chameleon Keith Moore in defence to your Quranic Embryology.

    Note: Still I did not recieve 23:14 explanation:)

    Thank You,
    Lord Voldemort.

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  96. Dear Brother Lord Voldemort,

    Assalaamu Alaikum,

    Please don't waste my time. Also please do not waste your time by writing long sentences. I am aware of most of the things you are telling.

    My questions are very simple,

    1. You claimed CAA (CAANCB) was Dr.Moore's organisation by saying,

    //JCB Grant Award? Wow! The Association where he is a founding member awarded him the JCB Grant.//
    //JCB Grant award is from HIS own organization. The award is given to scientists and professors but it doesnt mean that the founder should not be given this award.//
    //After all he got his own prestigious award.lol.///

    in reply i asked for your clarification by saying this

    ///By the way what is the meaning of founding member??...wikipedia says Dr.keithmoore is the founding member of AACA (ofcourse keithmoore also says this in AAA website). But what about CAA, which gave him the JCB award??...ofcourse he was one of the oldest member of the association, does that make him a founding member?? Pls correct me if I am wrong (I may misunderstood the meaning of words). Keithmoore says he is a member of CAA (not founding member) since 1954///

    But you didn't provide me the clarification or proof i asked for. Instead you said //JCB Grant award is from HIS own organization//

    Again I asked for proof by showing the clear evidences from the CV of Dr.Moore. I explained you the meaning of charter member.

    My question is very clear, please bring on your evidence to support your claim that CAA is his organisation.

    By the way, a award from CAA is more than sufficient to classify Dr.Moore as Scientist.

    2. You told me the definition of sceintist. And I showed what Dr.Moore claims from his CV. His contribution to science speaks volumes. He is a scientist according to the definitions you are given (you can clarify on this if i am wrong). If he is not listed big in the wiki that does not dis-credit him. The wiki article on Dr.moore says the following at the end,

    ///This article about a Canadian scientist is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it////

    So people can expand it. Also did you notice the sentence //This article about a Canadian scientist///??????... So, does wiki accepts him as a scientist???

    3. You said any dog can get the membership/fellowship of IAC by paying some dollars. I said in the last comment that, it is more complicated than that. To become a member there are mandatory rules to be followed not just the money. I have given you the example and the link also to check out. So a dog cannot become a member of IAC just like that. Please comment on this..

    4. You said ///He is not a member of all those prestigious associations and almost all are just MADE UP and FABRICATED.------Why a man in science needs such lies.///

    I am repeatedly asking you where did Dr.Moore claim this??. You have to bring me evidences...

    Fine brother, this will be my last comment until otherwise you bring me the evidences (for my questions) to back up your claim. My questions are very straight forward and simple.

    Go ahead and after all you are the one who said "before going to embryology who is keithmoore?"....

    Thanks and regard,

    Your brother,
    Aashiq Ahamed A
    Kill Atheism using Islam..

    ReplyDelete
  97. Hi,

    Since you requested me not to waste time, I present to you the same questions again.
    I need answers from any muslim for these questions:


    1. Do you require Keith Moore to prove Embryology in Quran? Why can't you use your Quran and Hadiths as a proof to explain Embryology.
    2. Why can't you use Modern Scientific Data from a genuine source to prove embryology in quran.

    3. Can you compare Keith Moore with any real scientist of your choice and give me the conclusion. Scientist like Dr.Abdus Salam or Stephen Hawkings.
    4. Is it really required for a genuine scientist to join a paid association.puff.
    5. Did you read his book. I mean his 3rd edition and the latest 8th edition.
    6. Why did he mention Quran as a myth in his 6th,7th and 8th edition of his book.
    7. Can you show me any scientist or professor changing topics in their repective book editions like Keith Moore.
    8. Why the muslim apologetics using wrong information without cross checking the source materials.

    8. Have you ever questioned Quran and Hadiths with same consistency to check the facts.
    9. Did you ever ever and ever quoted the verse 23:14 with translation and explained it to me in this blog.

    Hey........you did not respond to my MAIN PROOF against Keith Moore.
    "The Developing Human Clinically Oriented Embryology" 3rd Edition Vs All Editions.
    - Show quoted text -

    ReplyDelete
  98. Dear brother Lord Voldemort,

    Assalaamu Alaikum,

    Thanks for your participation.

    Thanks and take care,

    Your brother,
    Aashiq Ahamed A

    ReplyDelete
  99. Hi,

    Just follow the steps I provide now.
    1. Go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_L._Moore

    He is a founding member of AACA
    He was awarded Distinguished Educator Award by AACA

    2. Go to http://caancb.blogspot.com/2008/01/members-of-council.html?SID=5579b85428025c783d15a24f3e1b5ff2

    The PRESIDENT is the apex authority to this organization.

    3. Go to http://aaatoday.org/content/keith-l-moore

    Check Other notable associations, honors and awards section
    See for yourself that Keith Moore was the PRESIDENT of Canadian Association of Anatomists CAA.

    Can you justify now why the JCB Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists does not make sense.
    He was awarded from his own associations where he is either a founder or the president.
    Did he ever recieved a award as a scientist from any other reputable organizations? Naaaaaaay.

    As a educated person I want you to think about his reputation.
    Almost all the Islamic websites mentioned him and associated him in wrong associations. Most of them are fabricated.
    He did recieved awards from his own organizations.(founder or president)
    He did not mention Quranic Embryology as a fact in any of his works other than The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology 3rd edition.
    His most acclaimed book (as said by Zakir Naik) is re-edited by removing the contents regarding Quranic Embryology and telling it as a MYTH.

    If you feel Keith Moore is still a genuine person to believe and take his defence on Quranic Embryology, I pity you Aashiq.

    Please reply to this and my previous set of 9 questions. I hope I've given you enough evidence against Keith Moore and his awards. I am still looking forward for your interpretation on verse 23:14.:):):)

    Thank You,
    Lord Voldemort.

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  100. Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "உலக நாத்திகர் மாநாட்டில் முஸ்லிம்கள் விவாதம்...":

    to Lord Voldemort,
    assalamu alikum, here is the link for what you are debating..
    not only Keith Moore PZ Myers himself proves the Quran is correct :
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLdGS4fjrVg&feature=channel_video_title

    the words Thumma,fa and its meanings :
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIiVlO88D5o&feature=channel_video_title

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